I´m in the process of getting together a 11 car Southern Pacific heavyweight passenger train by Athearn. The cars are mixed with “Southern Pacific” (SP) and “Southern Pacific Lines” (SPL) lettering (so time must be around 1948 when that change in lettering happened), and 4 cars also have smaller “Texas & New Orleans” (T&NO) letterings on the sides. What SP passenger train would you recommend me to model with such a consist? Which train could be the most matching one for such a consist? The Sunset Limited (New Orleans-Los Angeles), the Argonaut (New Orleans-Los Angeles), the Alamo (New Orleans-San Antonio) or the Owl (Brownsville-Dallas)? Maybe I would apply a lighted drumhead tail sign by Tomar Industries on the rear of the observation car, so this is why I want to know what SP train could be the best choice for that consist:
RPO SP
Baggage SP/T&NO
Baggage SP/T&NO
Coach SPL
Coach SPL
Coach SPL/T&NO
Diner SPL/T&NO
Lounge SPL (it´s actually a second diner but I will use it as lounge)
What era you are modeling will effect your choices. SP officials directed removal of LINES lettering in 1946, with passenger equiptment and passenger motive power being among the first to display the new standard. Your’e probably also aware the coaches (chair car in SP parlance) and lounge cars are at best “stand in” models with the head end cars being acceptable, the observation and lounge cars would require the addition of underbody A/C detail and roof ducts or you could seek out examples to represent the most numerous class of 72’ chair car which can be had by use of Athearn’s arched roof coaches. SPL on the sleepers is inaccurate: post 1947 they would be under SP ownership and so lettered and numbered for Southern Pacific, pre1947 these were owned/operated and lettered for Pullman.
As for those displaying T&NO ownership, they are accurate to a point: Sub-lettering for T&NO ceased in 1961 when it was formally merged into the SP.
You didn’t mention the GOLD COAST (nicknamed the Cold Roast), operated jointly with the UP, it utilized heavyweight construction to a great extent into the fifties at the request of its its primary patron, the U.S Government and included lounges and observation.
I believe somebody had some fun with decals, which is …ok. I’ve done that. West Coast S pretty much gave you the good and bad news. However, he didn’t mention Golden State Route trains, which are a possibility, save for the fact they probably did not carry T&NO equipment - and - they DID carry a modicum of Rock Island equipment - OR Overland Route trains, but then you’d need a lot of armour yellow and harbor mist grey.
Hmmm. The other thing that WCS didn’t mention, but I suspect is thinking, is that you should really have “Harriman” style cars included in your consist. But he is spot on when it comes to the sleepers. They should really be lettered “PULLMAN” with names and sub-lettering post 1948.
With what sort of motive power are you planning to pull this limited? An MT-2 , 3 or 4 would be nice. Don’t know who now makes one in HO, but I had all the brass ones once upon a time.
Lastly, I know you are itching to use that Tomar drumhead, but have you considered a military movement? That would explain the two diners and you could toss in a couple extra off line sleepers. The obs might have to be parked but that would look nice?
I had the Pullman standard 72’ foot chair cars in mind and to a lesser extent the 60 foot inter-city chair cars.
The 60 footers are a quandry, one can locate some out-of-production Roundhouse examples, they have numerous flaws and are best avoided for the SP, but improvise if you must. Ken Kidder produced a hy-bird-brassl/wood version in the 60’s, these are what you want, they can be located on the cheap with some searching, recently, a fellow SP modeler I know just scored 9 of them at a swap meet for less then 20 bucks each! Why don’t I have that kinda luck!
Bingo and thanks, WCS. In fact !!! [:P] There’s a 60’s Ken Kidder Harriman baggage car on Ebay right now with no bids starting at $20. Item #120873704933
ta da.
Our friend needs to jump on this. At this writing the auction had just posted, so at least watch it and if it stays around that, hit it !! [wow]
In S scale we have a 72" coach in RTR with the correct windows, but incorrect roof, on the flip side we also have a 72’ RTR baggage car with the correct roof, but incorrect for SP doors or the “convert to scale” Reading prototype based-American flyer 60 foot bagage.
I’ll probably resort to scratchbuilding masters for the 60 foot Harriman coaches and casting my own kits, as there are variations I am interested in modeling, kitbashing would prove too intensive and time consuming.
Well, since these Athearn cars aren´t prototypical anyway (too short!), I don´t care about every detail to be 100% authentic. I know most SP heavyweight baggages, RPOs and coaches (chair cars) had Harriman style round roofs, but I´m totally ok with these standard type roofs of these Athearn heavyweight cars.
I didn´t know that all the SP locomotives and passenger cars lost their “Lines” lettering already in 1946. I thought this was a process taking place in 1947 and 1948. Also, I never saw a photo of a SP passenger train without “Lines” dating from 1946.
I don´t want to model the Gold Coast train, because it was an Overland Route train, while my interest on the SP is focused more on the Sunset and Golden State route. And I never saw a photo of the Gold Coast with olive green heavyweight cars. Because it was an Overland Route train, the heavyweights for that train were painted in the same colors as for the Overland Limited: two tone grey or Overland scheme. So a pre 1947 Gold Coast should be all in two tone grey. In 1947, UP started to repaint all of their heavyweight passenger cars into the Armor Yellow scheme to match the streamliners, so a post 1947 version of the Gold Coast should be a mix of yellow UP and two tone grey SP heavyweights.
I´m not into military or troop trains, so want to stick to normal “peacetime” passenger trains. I defintely would not like to park the observation car.
Motive power for that train should be a GS-4 in Daylight paint. The problem is now, that the GS-4 also is destined to pull my streamlined red and silver Golden State. And because the streamlined Golden State was not introduced before January 1948, the GS-4 must have got large “Southern Pacific” lettering, so it will not really match to the “Southern Pacific Lines” lettering of the heavyweight cars. I definetly plan to let the GS-4 pull the Golden State, because SP GS-4´s often pulled that train on the Tucumcari to El
The change over required several years to accomplish, it was SP’s intent to ensure that high profile equiptment was in compliance as soon as possible, often accomplished upon scheduled rebuilding or repainting.
Your’e OK with your’e time line. If one had access to indvidule locomotive shop records you could determine a specific repaint-re-letter date, lacking these records, I recommend use of a GS-4 with post 1946 standards, steam power was shopped more frequently then passenger equiptment and thus more likely to be in compliance with the current standards.
With the exception of the sleepers, you might find use for the following anodotal information for guidence:
While not 100% accurate as you stated, SP did aquire non SP standard passenger equiptment from the El Paso & South Western merger. The major upgrades were A/C as per my orginal post and interior revisions, several, orginally built as coaches and lounges, subsquently under went rebuilding as baggage/express and lunch counter cars only to be restored to coach configurations in later years.
Please do not read this as being a rant–that is not the tone it was written in–what follows is only intended to be constructive in nature. If you get bored, simply disregard the rest and move on.
I read this thread and then chuckled to myself:
If anyone is looking to very affordable ready-to-run, or nearly RTR, equipment that by shear coincidence happens to assemble a completely correct prototype passenger train in a given year–with limited (pardon the bad pun) exceptions, that is usually overly optimistic at best. In most cases the manufacturers were simply not intending to provide that level of accuracy/compatibility.
I run what I like on my railroad, period.
Why? Whenever I have tried getting anal about all the cars factually matching a particular year, or passenger train–well, it is quite possible that one can drive oneself nearly insane trying to do so. The readily available car lengths won’t be right, the window arrangements won’t be right, the floor plans won’t be right, the lettering will not always be available–or the lighted drum head will not be available–or the cars will need antenna systems, or the trucks will be wrong, or you’ll need specialized air conditioning unique to your road (if Santa Fe), and on and on.
I am the king of changing my mind because I couldn’t get everything I wanted to match when I wanted it or couldn’t even get the rolling stock I thought I “needed”–I have changed favorite railroads, eras, have changed from diesel to steam and back again I don’t know how many times, have lost personally over $20,000 trading brass models when they no longer fit in with what I wanted/needed my railroad to be, have redone the layout scenery to represent entirely different regions of the United States (or Mexico)…I have been laughed at by my former train store co-workers and have occas
As far as being too short, depends which cars you mean. Heavyweight RPOs were often only 60 feet long (like the Rivarossi / Walthers one, based on a CNW prototype). Many Baggage cars were 70’ or less, and many coaches were around 70’. So actually the Athearn RPO, Baggage, and Coach (which I think are 63’, 67’ and 70’ respectively) are full length for their prototypes. The Diner, Sleeper, and Observation cars are shortened from the normal 80’ length of those cars.
As I recall they’re based on ATSF prototype cars, but are generic enough that they’ve stood in for a number of different railroads over the years.
I did some additional research, you can disregard my suggestion pertaining to exterior A/C ducts, during a later rebuild of these former EP&SW cars, A/C ductwork was relocated inside the car, under the clearstory and concealed buy a false ceiling. The only significient difference on your examples are window spacing and overall carbody length. For a challenge, one could modify a RPO with a arched roof, and lengthen the body to 70 scale feet to replicate the former GS head end car in the photo (this example having been been repainted in SS/Scarlet) , 4 of which received GS colors in 1948 upon rebuilding with high speed trucks and rolling bearings or one could use a Southern Car & Foundry 70 foot harriman baggage and add the 15 foot postal section.
You nailed the correct use for those surplus diners as well , SP too had this problem, so used them as lounge cars, closing off, but not removing the kitchen facalities!
If any doubts remain, the Athearn’s are quite acceptable behind your post 1946 lettered GS-4 or AC .
Your question sent me to my copy of A.D. McLennan’s volume Texas & New Orleans. His pictures of second tier passenger trains on the SP’s Southern Tier lines seems to indicate a mix of Harriman style and standard celestory roofed rolling stock. I would guess the trains averaged 60% Harriman and 40% standard type cars. The Athern Blue Box line featured Harriman coaches and there were some by Concor and Model Power as well. These were cheap and generic cars in a variety of liveries but they could be upgraded with an authentic paint job ( a 50-50 mix of Floquil Roof Brown and Coach Green ), Microscale decals, better wheels, KD couplers, diaphrams and, grab irons. Combining them with Blue Box standard coaches, similarly upgraded, would give you a pretty convincing train. The recently released Athern Genesis MT class Mountain type engine, either plain or with skyline casing would make a fine engine.
The thing is not to let “perfect” get in the way of “good enough”. Otherwise you might never get 'em rolling.
