Over time, I’ve tried to figure out how the railroad employment world works. I found that I have a scant understanding of it, but not enough for it all to make sense. There’s whiskers, bidding out, bumping, marking off, the extra board, sharpshooting(?) etc… etc…
Could someone start at the beginning? Let’s say I just jumped through whatever hoop it takes to become an engineer on a Class 1. How do I enter the work a day world of the railroading business the next day?
Well your asking alot here and to answer all this im going to need a few oreos to get my energy up so i can handle this request,
whiskers is the amount a senority you have in the craft that you hold to do the job you want. ( clear as mud right) if i hired out april 2nd and you hired out april 3 i have a little bit more whiskers than you and can always if wanted hold a better job.
Bidding out is a term used to try and get a job. again if a job opened up but i didnt want to drive to it and you did live closer you bid the job and when the bid closes ( meaning a bidding time like a auction to say i want that job) you get the job, and you beat out all the guys junior to you.
bumping, this is a term used to move someone off their job so you can work it, again if the job i have was cut off ( done away with) and i decided i want to work the job you have my whisers are bigger than yours and im going to bump you and work that job.
marking off means i want the day off so to make sure the call office knows im not working and dont depend on me ill mark off then someone from the extra board will do my job.
the extra board is a bunch of employees that dont have bid in or regular assignments when someone marks off or extra work comes up this is where they get the extra employees.
sharpshootingI cant exsplain it that great i
Ok…
A few disclaimers first.
Each railroad has a slightly different agreement with the local union, but it still works pretty much like I will describe.
The National Agreement between all railroads and the UTU and the BLE supersedes any local agreement, in that the local can make some things a little more restrictive, but never less than the national.
To begin, lets say you hired on at the PTRA as a switchman, (everyone starts on the ground)
You finished your classroom work and field work, and are assigned a work number or employee number.
These are drawn at random, so if there are 10 guys in your class, 10 numbers will be placed in a “hat” and you get to pull one.
This number and your hire date are the most important things you can have, it establishes not only your seniority standing in your class, but on the railroad you work for.
Your hire date in the craft your hire into establishes your seniority in that craft only…
If your hire on in the MOW and then transfer into T&E, you start at the bottom of the T&E seniority roster only, you do not lose your seniority in the MOW craft roster.
Anyone hired into your craft after your will always be “younger” than you, and cant displace or out bid you for a job opening.
Anyone hired before you will always be older, and you can’t touch them…this is a craft specific roster.
On the Port, I am employee 7283, which is the number of employees total that were hired before me, including clerks, MOW and mechanical since the PTRA was formed in 1924.
Other carriers may assign numbers based on a different system, but the concept of your seniority starts with your “hire date” in the hiring system.
I will always be “older” than anyone hired after me in T&E seniority.
So lets say you drew 7400 as your employee number, you are the oldest guy in your class and you passed your 90 day probation period, (over your derail) were told to mark up.<
Wabash1,
I must be getting old. I understood everyting you said.[;)]
Ed, my question is not related specifically to the subject of this thread, but your likening extra board and pool service leads me to ask it. Forty-five to forty-eight years ago, when I lived in Wesson, Miss., I came to know several IC passenger trainmen and thier work, and I learned a little of the freight train operation (I was known to some of the freight men) on the main line of the Louisiana Division. All of the scheduled passenger trains had their regular train crews (they all knew just when they were going to work–if the trains were on time), and the crews of the manifest freights were in what they called “chain gang work” (the local crews worked the “rock pile”). When a man tied up, his name went to the bottom of the list, and the man whose name was at the top of the list was called for the next train out, whether he tied up at New Orleans (south end of the division), Gwin (north end of the division), or McComb (division base). Generally, the men preferred a call north from McComb (150 miles) to a call south (100 miles)
Would this “chain gang” work be considered “pool” work?
Yard assignments can be permanent assignments, where you hold the same position and job everyday, excepting days off. Other yards have what they call a daily mark up. On the mark up board, you have assigned days off, but no regular yard assignment. You call in the day before and give the your choices of the next day’s jobs. The more seniority the better chance of getting your top choices. If you don’t bid, or all your choices are filled by senoir people you get assigned to what’s left over. If there aren’t enough people on the mark up board any vacancies go to the extra board.
Depending on where you are, there can be a switchman’s extra board that protects the yard assignments. There can also be a combination extra board that protects both yard and road assignments and/or just a road extra board. A home to a lot of road pools may have more than one extra board protecting those assignments.
Road jobs can be assigned, like most local freights. Some places may still have assigned thru freight jobs. You work the same train symbol out of the home terminal every day. At the away from home terminal (AFHT) you may work home on the same symbol everyday or become part of the pool and get whatever’s next. (Out of my home terminal, all thru jobs go to the pool. The old heads talk about having assigned jobs in the past.)
The pool jobs are like the extra board in that you get whatever thru train is next. The difference is the extra board may work to more than one AFHT. The pools usually have a limited AFHT destination. (For example, out of Boone the engr’s West Pool runs to Fremont, the East Pool runs to Clinton. The condr’s East/West Pool can work to either AFHT. At one time they also had separate pools, but they combined some time back. There’s also a North Po
Ed
Nice sumary of the rules.
With the recent changes in the Hours of Service Act, there is a limit to the on duty hours for each month. Are any of your sharpshooters going for work, getting stopped by that limit?
Not really, because of the limited number of jobs here at a terminal/switching railroad, they pretty much max out to what they want before the limits of hours is reached.
There are only a few guys who run it like that, and they seem to go in cycles…with summer here and vacations taken all the time, they pretty much have the run of what every they want…but man, they work way to much for my taste.
I can’t add much factual information to what’s already been posted here, except for the common expression: “If you don’t have the seenie, you get the weenie.”
Just thought you’d like to hear from somebody whose seniority number is actually #1. I have my choice of jobs as a car retarder operator, and nobody can bump me, I could give 24 hours’ notice, and take any job I desired (subject to certain provisions involving days off). I can receive a bump if they make a change in my assignment. (This did not happen when they last did this a couple of weeks ago–didn’t matter to me, because I wouldn’t have moved anyway. If I were to mark off for any reason, they would attempt to fill my job from the CRO Extra Board. If they couldn’t do that, they’d ask people if they’d like to work overtime (their rest days, usually, sometimes ahead of shift after rest days). This has to be done in seniority order–I occasionally get these calls, but since I’m not particularly “hungry” I can turn them down, and usually do. They don’t sound too disappointed when I do, because they have a few other possibilities yet.
I also get first choice on my vacation every year, with one quirk. If I split my vacation, I have to tell them which split is my first choice. I get that one, but my other splits are given to me after everyone else has made his/her first choice. So I have to decide which of my splits is most important to me.
Now, if I were to decide to take a cushy transfer job, I’d no longer be Numero Uno in seniority. My current seniority number on the yard roster is 23, meaning in theory that there are 22 people out there that I couldn’t bump, or 22 people that could bump me off the job if they wanted to. (The truth is, there are fewer than that, because some of these guys are content on their Metra runs, a few more are out on disability–I’m actually about Number 15.) I don’t think that I’ll take one of these jobs–I’d be too embarrassed, because I’ve been away too long and would need qualifying tr
Carl, it sounds as though you have cut your seniority off.[:D]
This does take a while to digest.
If I have just marled up as an engineer, it seems pretty apparant that my first experience with the railroad will be on the extra board. I go out on a run, and come back. Then, I put my name at the bottom of the list, and they call me when I get to the top for another run?
Marking off: If I want some time off (without pay), is it just that simple- I say “please don’t call me, until I feel like operating a train again” ? Suppose I want to take 4 or 5 days off, and go to a Grateful Stones concert or something? That’s OK with Uncle Pete ?
Just don’t inhale at the concert! [;)]
Yes, Norris, it’s pretty much done automatically. You have to tie up and fill out your time reports over the computer. When that’s done, you’re at the bottom of the list. You can now count on at least ten hours in which you will not be disturbed by a call.
You can try and mark off just about any time and for whatever reason–however, something like a concert would be frowned upon. (I have an anniversary coming up soon, and should be able to take a vacation day for that–it’s safer than attempting an “LP” [layoff personal]. That’s because I’ve indicated that I have a week’s worth of vacation that I want to take one day at a time, when I choose, subject to approval.) And, at least around here, they watch your attendance records like a hawk. We have a couple of folks on our board who marked off so often that they didn’t qualify for a vacation this year! And I’ve heard tell that some folks really pay attention to how many days they work so they don’t work any more than they need to to qualify for a vacation (idiots–the more you work, the better your vacation pay next year!). Usually marking off is handled one day at a time, though when I was in the hospital last fall I gave them my best estimate of when I’d be ready to work and they accepted that.
If you say “I don’t feel like operating a train again”, you just might get your wish, after a formal investigation.
Fantastic discussion. The crew management aspect of this industry is complex, to say the least.
Listening in on the scanner over the years, certain crew members have familiar voices. Often, those crews are on the same train daily. For instance…NS runs a train 323 from East Wayne (Fort Wayne) to Van Loon and return daily. Same voice nearly every day. My guess this might be the most desireable jobs on the board. Civil call time (8am or so), 260 mile round trip with pretty much one stop at Van Loon. Take the empty coil cars to CN (EJE) and pickup the loads. Back to the Fort by 6pm or so. Go home…do it again tomorrow.
So, that job is obviously “bid”. No doubt the locals around Fort Wayne are to, plus any other turns (just my educated guess).
Now for the next situation. There are about 10 regular intermodals or manifest trains (each way) daily between Fort Wayne and Chicago terminals. Plus there are at least 2 daily coal trains and 2 empties in and out of Van Loon and Osborn (NW Indiana interchanges to CN and IHB) for delivery to steel mills. Throw in a couple of extras and commodity trains and you are up to 26 regulars plus the 323 and local.
How is the crew management for this handled? Is everyone (except for locals and “bids”) on the extra board? If so, doesnt that penalize the longer whiskers? It seems the board would turn over slower. Or is there a “pool” board and then an “extra” board? Lets say they know there are 10 regular trains daily each way. The coal trains are not scheduled. They know they need “x” number of crews to handle these 140 trains weekly (10 x 2 x 7 days). This is based on number of trains plus crew productivity. So…would those 10 trains each way be on a separate pool than the coal trains and extras?
Norris,
Yeah, pretty much count on ending up on the extra board for a year or two.
In the case on engineers, natural attrition through retirement and or death keeps the roster pretty steady, moving up takes time.
Then again, timing is everything, like in my instance, the 30/60 retirement came along at just the right time to move me up a lot quicker than the norm.
Marking off is different most places, the National Agreement allows for mark off no pay ill up to 3 days, after which the carrier can request a return to work release from a physician.
Mark off personal is determined by local contract.
On my road, we are given 3 paid personal days, mark off no questions asked.
Any mark off for personal reason after that, well, a lot depends on your mark off history…if your like me and don’t mark off much, they normally don’t question you or give you a hard time…on the other hand, if you have a history of marking off the day before your “weekend” of assigned days off, then the Human Resource Nazi will give you as much grief as he can.
Vacation time is by years served, I am entitled to 3 weeks paid, and I can reserve one of those weeks as a “day at a Time” week, meaning I have 5 paid days I can take off, either singly or in combination…so if I wanted to attend a Grateful Dead concert, I could take a vacation day, and depending on how much fun I have at the concert, maybe two days…
The whole idea is that part of the National Agreement is designed to make you protect your job, meaning that you work your assigned job or the extra board on a consistent basis, which allows the carrier to budget a given amount of money for payroll and such…if anyone was allowed to mark of anytime for any reason, then the extra board would be huge, because there would be no way to anticipate how many guys would be off on any given day, so the carrier would have to have a lot of guys standing by to fill vacant spots…if your unlucky and are on a extra board wit
So, you mean if I became an engineer, the railroads would want me to work when it’s convenient for them? Bogus Dude! How would I possibly get enough ME time? [:O]
Is there a set minimum, that employees are required to work?
Different roads have different rules. For example, Ed’s description of the Belt in Houston in regard to maintaining seniority in the M of W when going to train service wouldn’t happen on my railroad. There are several who’ve worked in maintenance of way who’ve given it up to go to transportation and all have lost their seniority in maintenance. However, by the same token, we’ve had several who’ve gone into the dispatcher’s office and all have retained their seniority in transportation.
On my portion of the railroad, there are no assigned trains, it’s first out and you get the next train, regardless of what it is and regardless of your seniority status. The only thing seniority may get you is a better local or a better yard job. However, when it comes to freight service, seniority around here allows you to hold a regular pool place and you’re still subject to call and first in, first out.
And yes, the railroad would expect you to work when its convenient for them. You’re working for them, they’re not working for you. You need to keep that in mind if you’re really contemplating working for the railroad.
Ed,
Every terminal has some assigned jobs, from flat switching, which can be grueling or sweet, depending on your outlook…
There are trim jobs at hump yards, hump jobs, locals that run out and work nearby industries, yard to yard transfer jobs, or “turns”…all bid on.
Some jobs can be done quick, you finish and go home, some jobs can be made to drag out all 12 hours, a lot of how desirable a assigned job is depends on the crew and what they want, lots of overtime or a quit every day.
If your terminal is not much more than a crew change point with a few yard tracks for RIP and a small set out, then most likely it is a pool service system there, not much to bid on anyway.
Remember, as several of us pointed out, a whole lot of the how and why stuff is determined by the local agreement between the local union chapters and the carrier.
Assigned jobs are created by the carrier.
They create jobs to fill certain needs, and can abolish them at will.
Most terminals have a set lead jobs or two, and often a customer may see an upturn in business, requiring a second or third plant switch, so the carrier will create and post for bids jobs to fill such requirements.
On my road, jobs work in shifts, first second and third, and are numbered accordingly, so my jobs, 152, is 1(first shift) 52, 52 being the lead job south end North Yard…job 252 is second shift, so forth and so on…any of our jobs that start with 1** will be a morning or daylight job.
UP uses something close to this here for yard jobs and yard to yard transfers…EW160 EngleWood 1st shift yard to yard from Englewood to PTRA and EW260 is the same job but in the evening.
Through train, or symbol trains are the same, they are created by the carrier, the crew make up is offered up for bids by seniority or made up from pool service crews…
Technically, I work for the UTU, under contract to the
See: marking off, sharpshooting.
Ed (MP173), most thru freight assignments will probably be handled by pool crews. There are places where certain thru trains do have assigned crews. How things are handled depends on the local agreements between the railroad and the union. For any specific area you’ld have to talk to someone who works that area.
We temporarily had some assigned jobs a while back on the west end for MPRCB/MCBPR. There were three crews assigned and they only handled those trains, or deadheaded. At the home terminal if the trains were outside of a certain window, the crew was able to collect a penalty payment. At the AFHT, if the inbound crew was on a late train and used up their 12 hours, they usually weren’t rested for the return trip. They’ld then call a regular pool crew for the return train and deadhead home the assigned crew. These assigned jobs didn’t last too long and the trains went back to the pools.
Who regulates the size of pools and extra boards? Ultimately, the railroad holds the final say. If the pool or extra board dosen’t have a gaurantee, the local union chairman regulates the size based either on how many miles or how many starts (going on duty) in a certain time period. Even then the railroad can overrule him/her. If the board has a gaurantee, the local chairman may still hold some sway but you can bet the railroad is going to watch how much gaurantee is being paid. (In regulating the boards there are those who want the board small to make as much as possible, others who want it larger to have some time off while still making a good paycheck. The local chairman has to try to please everyone, but if he/she keeps it too short, the railroad can step in and add turns. Too many and the RR will remove turns.)
Senoirity of course plays into who holds an assigned