Got one with the Polar Express. Runs the post war conventional engines great. One problem is the Pensy turbine. Will not blow the whistle. Flashes the green light for over load. The KW’s and the DCS will blow it OK. I know it needs replacing. Now to the questions. When I hit the direction button, it takes about 5 seconds for the transformer to cycle. IOW, the thing drops power and then about 5 seconds later, it builds the power back. Not suddenly but a fast from nothing to the setting. I also tried to set the accessory voltage using a volt meter. Will not work. It shows 19.53 V AC all the time. Even with all the buttons pushed down, green light flashing and handle all the way down and at any setting. So I checked the voltage on the variable side. It showed 19.53 volts with the handle closed. So I checked the other transformers I have to be sure the voltmeter was OK. It showed the correct voltages for all at the settings of the handles. So I hooked the CW80 to the track. Handle down, put train on the track and no voltage. Strange. Main question is: the response time suppose to be this slow when the direction button is mashed? [its not the eunits as the lights are off and then come up to brightness very fast after 5 seconds]. Also: Maybe somone can answer the crazy volt readings.
Chief,
No doubt foolishly, I will take a shot at some of your issues. I have two CW-80’s and I like them, although I’m not ready to discard my ZW’s. The CW-80 is “unlike any other transformer, that Lionel has ever made,” according to Lionel Tech Services. For anyone who has long experience with the ZW’s, KW’s, 1033’s, etc., it seems just a tad quirky. One question is, are the quirks bugs or features?
Take the "slow throttle response. " I have heard that this is a “ramp up, ramp down” feature, designed to help keep rubber tires from being spun off the wheels, and/or gears (especially plastic ones) from stripping due to too-rapid accelerations.
One thing this new throttle can do, in many cases, is to allow you to stop your train at a station with sufficient power to allow the train to proceed forward again without cycling into neutral and reverse, etc. I don’t know whether such activity is really good for the brushes and commutator. I hope it doesn’t hurt anything.
The CW-80 may not trip the E-unit on certain loco’s even when you want it to. I have been told that the cure for this is to have a small load on the transformer at all times. A single lamp, such as from an illuminated lock-on or caboose is supposed to do the trick. (Don’t ask me why–I don’t claim to understand any of this.)
The transfomer “behaves” at rest as if it is producing 20 volts but (almost) no current. I don’t understand much about electical waveforms, but the bottom line seems to be that this doesn’t seem to hurt anything. I have had techs from both Lionel and Williams tell me that, other than causing the sound system to emit a slight burp when the device is first plugged in, this causes no ill-effects.
The manual says to put the train on the track and get everything in readiness, set the throttle to its lowest setting, THEN to plug in the transformer, and you’re good to go…
The biggest problem with the Owner’s Manual" (available for downloading and
wolverine49, thanks for all the info [not long winded at all]. Been around this stuff since 1952 but was out of it from 85 until earlier this year. Things have really changed. What I do now is unplug my lead from the TIU [DCS] to the track I am running the conventional engine on. I use marked double banana clips on the leads from the CW80. I plug it in and just run the engine with the CW80 [bypassing all other equipment and all track sections are insulated from each other]. I checked the phasing with the other bricks and only get a very tiny spark and not the “weld” arching like out of phase. Never had heard about the light betwen the two transformers to check phasing [like in manual]. I do have a light on a lockon on each track section. This is suppose to help DCS signal too. You are right. They run old Lionel engines great [except for the old whistle in the Pensy turbine and it needs repairs]. Have not tried my new Williams SD90’s with it. Think I will. You answered my questions. Thanks.
I have a like new KW lionel transformer that I am willing to sell If sombody wants some good power for a reasonable price. Just email me. lickness2002@yahoo.com.
Dave Roxin.
I have a used and a new [found it in box, never used] KW. Theya re great transformers. I love them. I probably don’t need it but how much? Recommend them if in good condition.
I’ve been monitoring this topic (CW-80) for about a month now on this chat board as well as another on O gauge trains because of the inconsistencies I too have found with this transformer. After reading the excellent post by Wolverine49 I felt compelled to set up a test track with the CW-80 and test a variety of locomotives from different manufactures. I tested a modern day mid-priced Lionel 2-6-4 Steam engine and whistle tender, from the 95/96 era with no flywheel, a post war Lionel 675 with modern day whistle tender, an MTH Railking F3 with horn, and a Williams 671 Steam engine with bell and whistle. Connecting the transformer as instructed (U-2 (outside rail) and A-1 (inside rail)) I ran the test with a lighted lock-on and again without. I tested for consistency using the reversing action using the direction button and again with the lever, the whistle/horn button, and the bell (when it applied). Here are my results. The modern day Lionel steamer and tender worked perfectly in all categories, the reversing action cycled through forward, neutral, reverse, neutral, and forward again with out any problems, the whistle blew and it smoked as well as it can. It was great to learn how to apply the features offered by the voltage ramping aspects of this transformer, especially against a loco with no flywheel and issues with gears slipping. This transformer seemed perfect for modern Lionel with basic features. The Lionel PW 675 and MTH Railking F3 each performed well with the lighted lock-on and with out. The Williams 671 was the most inconsistent performer. With the lighted lock-on and one lighted piece of rolling stock it cycled through the reversing action as FNRF, it skipped the neutral function between reverse and forward. The electronic whistle worked as well as the bell with one anomaly. The bell action is delayed when you pu***he button by as much as 4-5 seconds. When the lighted lock-on was removed as well as the lighted piece of stock the 671 became more inconsistent where it remained stuck in neutr
I received my MTH newsletter to day and it has an article on the Lionel CW80
Transformer.
Just thought you would want to know.
tom
It seems that the “age-old pure sine-wave standard” is the only way to go. I have had nothing but problems with transformers that use a modified waveform.
Here’s a perfect example: I have a Lionel Lines starter set from 1996 that I ran for a couple years with the 40 watt power supply that came with the set. It was fine for a while, but in the past few years, when running the train, it will just stop dead in it’s tracks - with the headlight on. It doesn’t go into to neutral, because if you turn the power way up it will usually take off again (at a very rapid pace). Finally I got sick of this, and decided to hook up my old Lionel 1033 transformer to see what would happen. The result? The train runs smooth as silk and never hesitates. I got the same results with a little 50 watt MPC transformer from the early 70s. In my experience, the best place for the new transformers that use a modified waveform is in the garbage. Not only are there incompatibilities with the various control systems, sound systems, etc., but some of the modern power supplies seem to be extremely hard on electronics, motors - even light bulbs! I can’t speak to the CW80, because I don’t own one - specifically because of the various problems mentioned above.
From here on out I will never buy a power supply that does not use a pure sine-wave signal.
Just my 2 cents worth.
My opinion of the CW-80: Nice concept and design; lousy (undependable and erratic) performance.
When I received a CW-80 shortly after they were released, I found it to be very problematic with certain makes and types of locomotives, and not consistently within any given brand. In short: I found that I couldn’t trust it, so it went back into its box, where it resides today.
Thanks for the comments. Guess I’ll depend on my KW’s and 1033’s. I’ll keep testing this CW80 though.
I’m not an “expert”, but here is my experience with the CW-80:
I have been using two CW-80’s on my small layout for over a year now. Each runs one train as well as a two accessories (semaphore, banjo, crossing gate, block signal) activated by insulated rail sections. I alternate running engines with the transformer handle as well as with TMCC in both command and conventional mode, using modern Lionel, MTH, Williams and K-Line engines. To date, I have had no problems with the performance of these transformers. My operating sessions tend to run no longer than 30-45 minutes at a time.
Operates MTH Railking PS-1 Doodlebug, SW-9 switcher, and LocoSound steam locomotive with no problems, including activating horn, bell and station/crew announcements.
Only “quirk”: the only way to use an outside insulated rail section to activate signals, gates, etc., is to attach the wire from the “U” post to the center rail, and the wire from the “A” post to the outside rail. This results in reverse polarity and causes the “bell” button to blow the whistle/horn and the “whistle” button to sound the bell. When using a CAB-1, the “bell” and “whistle” buttons function normally.
I use a seperate 1033 to power lights, control tower, airplane at 11v. (posts B and C) and oil derrick and rotary beacon at 16v (posts A and C).
Hope this helps.
- Lou
It is now clear that there are as many posts from folks who cannot stand the CW-80 as there are from people who like it. Lionel corporation should not be happy with this situation. I wish someone knowledgeable from Lionel would jump in with some help. (I am no “expert” nor am I an apologist for Lionel.)
Meanwhile, this might help some of the people some of the time. If you don’t have a copy of the Owner’s Manual one can be viewed, or downloaded and printed out, at the Lionel website, specifically:
http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/Findex.cfm
This link doesn’t take you all the way to it, but it gets you close enough so you can probably navigate the rest of the way.
Once you get there, you will discover that you have a choice of manuals, one dated 1/04 and an earlier one. I use the more recent one. Even so, I have made the following pen-and-ink notations in mine:
-
On page 5 the diagram shows the “controller connections” reversed; Post A should connect with the center rail; Post U should connect with an outside rail, in most situations.
-
On page 9, where the manual shows items 1-5, I have added an item 0, squeezed in at the top, which reads “Connect the accessory to the CW-80’s accessory posts.”
-
Farther down the same page, item 3, I suggest adding “Observe the accessory and adjust the throttle lever until the accessory performs satisfactorily. See p.6, item 4.”
I hope this will help somebody. It is not to imply that any of the members of this forum has not consulted his manual. The manual is admittedly Spartan, and I am not universally fond of all things Spartan, as some of you may appreciate. (Joke)
wolverine49
I just bought a new Winter Wonderland train set, complete with the CW-80 transformer. Unfortunately, the dad-blasted thing hasn’t worked but for one hour over the last two days, no matter what we did (or undid and redid).
Pusing the horn button would cause the train to come a complete stop - pushing the driection button had no effect whatsoever - and the train would be running fine for fifteen minutes and then stop dead on the tracks and refuse to move again no matter what we did.
I finally asked for help here, and after trying everyones suggestions to no avail (othert than becomming more frustrated - if that was possible) I called Lionel Customer Service. The woman on the other end of the phone informed me that there are problems with a particular batch of the CW-80’s, and promised to ship me a new one right away. Not bad at all for Customer Service just a few days before Christmas!
So, I will say that it looks neat, but it has failed miserably in evereything we asked it to do. I shall withhold final judgement until the new CW-80 arrives and is put to the test.
roger
Just experienced some quirks with mine now. Would not run a 1952 Hudson [that it ran fine the other night] with a MTH lighted caboose behind it. Everytime the caboose crossed a switch, it acted as if it shorted and the green light flashed. Would not also blow the whistle but did fine the other night [green light flashed each time]. Disconnected it and ran the KW and all ran fine [including the lighted caboose] and whistle blew fine. Guess this one will be used for accessory power or stored.
I have never seen one. Are they heavy enough to be used as boat anchors?
Cord not long enough. [;)] Maybe for a jon boat used in a farm pond. [:D]
Guys,
I am new to this site–I found your thread while googling for issues with the cw80.
Based on some of the observed performance issues in this thread related to directional control, whislte/bell operation, and accessory connections I feel somewhat releived. I don’t feel so confused anymore.
I have been working to get my 45 gateman to operate via a Fastrack insulated outer rail control rail setup utilizing the accessory fixed voltage in the same fshion as traditional non-digitally controlled transformers are used. I cannot get the gateman to operate on fixed 13VAC accessory input while attached to the rail common through the insulated section. The gateman acts like it is powered via track voltage although it’s attached to acc. power.
During my investgation I found that the common (u) is not neccessarily common, it appears to be shared through a bridge of some sort, but not entirely “common.” The transformer design certainly is non-traditional; I suspect the internal transformer output is a singular 19VAC routed through a digital divider/control circuit, powering the track and accessory posts through the same source, only the voltages are varied through digital control.
With the transformer powered and not attached to a load, I measured accross the track (a) and track common–19VAC. Next measured between track (a) and the accessory common–12 VAC. Unexpected. With the track power connctions made, transformer power control lever at 0 power, center to outer rail reads 19VAC, zero amps. Nothing whatsoever attached to the track at this point.
Next, I put a passenger car on the track–again, zero transformer control input, and the circuit went from 19VAC to 0 VAC as soon as I installed the car. At this point the track circuit and voltage readings were "traditional, " voltage increased and decreased as expected with throttle control. I suspect the track showing 19VAC with no loads or cars is part of the short to ground and o
I know that the FasTrack uncoupler and switches manuals warn not to use the CW-80 accessory outputs for aux power. I tried and they applied the fixed voltage from the outputs to the track. I called Lionel about it and really didn’t get much of explaination just that it can’t be done. I had two of them go out on me; the throttle would cut power out when it was lowered.
The only good thing I can say about it is it made me buy a Z-4000 [:D]
Dale Manquen did an exhaustive analysis of the CW-80 a couple of years ago Unfortunately, the only document I was able to find is the electrical schematic here it is:
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/453102703/m/8131051843
potts,
Try doing an “advanced search” on this as well as the equally friendly OGR forum. There are literally reams of material on this subject. Search on keywords such as “CW-80,” “gateman,” etc., and/or under author’s name, such as “Manquen,” a recognised authority on this device.
I have four CW-80 transformers, and have never had a moment’s problem with any of them – after carefully reading the owner’s manual, and talking to Lionel Technical Service about the error on page 5 of the instructions (the diagram and the text directly conflict – the diagram is WRONG, the text is RIGHT) and being advised that you cannot use the accessory taps with devices that require a “common” ground," Also, the throttle is SUPPOSED to ramp up slowly – it’s a feature, not a bug.
Oh, and forget your voltmeter. It will NOT read correctly or even sensibly on the outputs of this transformer – especially if the transformer is not under an electrical load… That fact, in and of itself, does NOT imean that the transformer is operating incorrectly. Please trust me on this.
I have four CW-80’s, and over three years have had no problems – knock wood. I am dismayed that some forum members refer to CW-80’s as “boat anchors.”
wolverine