Who Still Models Old School DC Block Operation?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
81

Are the Aristo-Craft; or, Aristo whatever systems still available? I just did a search and could not find much on this manufacturer as far as a DC operation systems are concerned. They may still make rolling stock, possible in Large Scale. I did find Crest, is this the same company?

A club I belonged to had some type of radio system, may have been Aristo, I can’t remember. It was good system; however, the club had no blocks in their layout, just a double tracked loop with a branch line. One throttle was hooked to one of the mains and the other to the other. Pretty simple.

82

Yes, CREST is the brand name. It is designed for large scales, but advertises it works for all scales, which it does just fine.

Since they are a large scale company and you would want wireless for that, I assume they are still made…but I haven’t checked for a while.

83

Thank you Doughless, I’m firmly into DCC; however, with all the discussion about the Aristo systems, I figured it would be a good thing if they were still available.

84

Your question got me poking around the 'net a bit and it looks like Aristo/Crest has updated the product. I’m not sure they still make the product that Sheldon uses, and I use a simpler version of Sheldon’s throttle which I know they’ve discontinued.

No problem however, if my Train Engineer breaks, I’ll just flip the plug in my Atlas locos over to DCC and use my NCE wireless for the silent locos too and move right along…no worries.

85

I use the older, but not oldest version of the Train Engineer. Mine are the 10 channel 27 MHz version with the on/off switch. I will look later and see if I have a photo to post.

The newest product, the Train Engineer Revolution will do everything the older models did, plus much more. They have both onboard receivers for large scale and trackside receivers for any scale.

They are also working to develope onboard receivers for HO - direct radio - imagine DCC with no baswe station, just a simple power supply putting 12 volts on the track all the time, and the control info travels through the air doirectly to the loco - not thorugh the rails.

In the whole history of the hobby, there have been a few other radio throttles, but Aristo is by far the most successful.

Before DCC was fully developed, the Train Enginee

86

I would have thought they would offer the system in something better than the 27 MHz range. In the late 1960s, Radio Control manufactures all but stopped producing R/C system in 27 MHz and jumped up to 72-75 MHz. Now R/C is almost totally dominated by 2.4 GHz frequency hopping systems. Have you guys using these systems ever had any RF problems, “glitching”, interference? Just my opinion; but, sending the signal through the rails is a better mousetrap!

Is the newer stuff 2.4 GHz?

87

Sheldon:

How you operate and what you have accomplished electrically/electonically is genius. I am green with envy at your abilities.

Dave

88

The new Revolution is 2.4 GHz, but I have never had a signal or range problem with my 27 MHz system. They did also use 72-75 MHz for a different version of the product I have.

Even with 5" “rubber duckies”, I can run my layout, located in the second floor of my detached garage, from out in my driveway, 100’ away.

In the 30’ x 40’ confines of the layout room, it is dead on reliable with 8 different channels going at once.

A club near York PA used them for years on a club layout that was about 250’ x 75’ - no problems. Remember you are not flying an airplane, you are walking/standing in a building and the receiver is stationary.

Sending the signal throught rails is subject to the electrical noise of the wheel moving on the rail. That is why dirty track can be more of a problem for DCC than simple DC.

Here is what I like most, five simple large buttons - FASTER, SLOWER, EAST, WEST, EMERGENCY STOP. The buttons are easily identified by feel, I never have to look at the throttle.

Not the best picture, but this shows the Aristo handheld I use, and the Aristo base station, mounted to the regulated power supply I use.

[URL=http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/carrollhome/media/DSC00272_zpsvabvn9nb.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af147/carrollhome/DSC00272

89

Good morning!

Unlike some of the posters on the various “DC vs. DCC” forum threads, I’ve had the pleasure of running both systems - DC for a good 40 plus years, and DCC for 7 years. IMO, that gives me some credentials to speak to both systems.

The “plus and minus” of both have been tossed around these forums for years now. And frankly, there is nothing I can add to them.

But I can say this… DC operation kept this hobby alive for umpteen decades. Like DCC, one can make it as simple or as complicated as they want. For a newcomer to the hobby, there is a lot to be said for beginning their MR venture with DC operations.

I resent the label “old school” applied to DC (or most anything else for that matter). Those things called “old school” by some are what got us to where we are today, and they still work just fine.

One last thing… Why in the world would any MR give a rat’s patoote what operating system another MR chooses to go with? That just doesn’t make any sense to me. It would be like me spouting… “why aren’t the rest of you MRs running ATSF prototypes of the '40s and '50s in HO with period correct rolling stock and vehicles?”

Yup, that is pretty narrow minded, as is the “if you don’t run DCC, you are a big dummy” - to paraphrase more than a few comments I’ve read on this forum.

Come on guys (and gals), lets talk about some really important stuff…

90

Sheldon, is that you??? [(-D]

Rich

91

Guys,Since DC is the subject I would like to mention another feature of MRC Tech 6.

In the DC mode you can use braking and momentum and consist two DC locomotives by using the voltage setting and momentum.

I consisted two BB GP38-2s and was surprise with the results.Of course remove them from the layout and they return to their normal DC running when placed on a (say) DC club layout.

And if you’re wondering yes,this old man has way to much time on his hands. [(-D]

92

Makes you wonder?

93

Sheldon, that is the system the Club I belonged to used, back in the mid 1990s. I found it to be reliable and easy to operate.

Having operated my layout for fourteen years via DC Block Control, I’ve found clean track to be beneficial to both DC and DCC operation. I have never seen any erratic control on my DCC layout due to dirty track; however, all those years operating DC made me keenly aware of the need for clean track!

94

Dave,

Thank you for the kind words. I was trained right out of high school in electrical control design, long before computers existed to run things like assembly lines, factory machines, pumping stations, etc. All done with relays back then.

Later I installed and programed some of the first Programable Logic Controllers (early industrial computers) to run that kind of equipment.

My control system is really a collection of simple industrial control circuits, combined with the ideas that Ed Ravenscroft and Bruce Chubb applied to model trains back in the 1960’s and early 1970’s.

And then that is applied with the Aristo wireless throttles.

Genius? not really - the curcuits that make it work were running factory machines and railroad signal systems in 1920 - long before I came along. I just took the time to learn it and apply it.

Sheldon

95

I am going to try to be brief on this subtopic of speed matching/consisting.

Having been running DC powered model trains since the late 1960’s, I have seen lots of MU’d diesels with all units powered.

I have never had any trouble running two, three, four or more units of the same brand/design/manufacture together.

That said, a great many of the locos offered in the last 20 years are of similar or identical design even from brand to brand. Put a can motor in an Athearn Blue Box and you have a Proto2000 drive - more or less.

My Intermountian and Genesis F units run together fine.

I have a large fleet of Proto2000 diesels of the following types - GP9, GP7, BL2, FA1/FB1, FA2/FB2 - they all run together fine, and run with a number of other locos as well.

Steam - The following list of locos easily all double head with no problems:

Proto20000 2-8-8-2

Spectrum 2-6-6-2

Spectrum 4-8-2

Bachmann 2-8-4 (converted to 2-8-2)

Athearn 2-8-2

Broadway 2-8-2 (sound and decoder tenders removed, Bachmann tender and circuit board installed)

And many of these newer steam locos run at similar gearing/speeds as the diesels - yes I mix steam and diesel.

Now - important fact - I don’t run MU or double headers just for looks - the trains are long enough, and heavy enough to require them. This does help them run well together at all speeds.

My engine terminal is designed with extra “kill zones” to even allow making up engine sets and storing multiple engines on one track.

I don’t have many really old locos - when locos got dramaticly better in the 90’s, I got rid of most of my old stuff and bought new - most all of my loco fleet is 20 years old or less.

Speed matching all these locos in DCC to this level of interchangeablity would require a massive investment in time - I did it in DC with a series of simple real world tests.

And,

96

My main layout is DCC but I’ve started a 4x8 Christmas Village layout that will use some of my old DC equipment. It’s going to have one hidden two track staging yard so that’s two blocks plus a third block for the rest of the layout. I’ve got the track down and it is old fashioned code 100 sectional track. No brass rail. I didn’t go that far back.

97

Sheldon, one thing I don’t quite understand when locos run well together on DC they also run well together on DCC, my own experience. Why is there a need to speed match them when using DCC?

98

I’m still using DC. While I like the aspects of DCC, I have 90+ locomotives that I know I’ll never get around to converting, especially my BB’s. With a lot of people leaving the hobby or converting to DCC, there are lots of good inexpensive power packs to be had.

99

I like technology for it’s own sake. Just as Sheldon enjoys building complex DC control systems, I like to experiment with new technology. For example, I’m installing block occupancy detection on my layout just to animate my JRMI control panel. I may add signals later (if I can find some CPL’s) but I’m interested in the technology anyway.

Side note, the primary reason I left the hobby in the early 90’s is that I couldn’t decide which command control system was going to survive. By the time the NMRA came up with a standard, I couldn’t reclaim my space. Now the kids have moved out and I was able to allocate a spare room.

MRR is a big tent.

100

You don’t always have to speed match with DCC either, but this ablity is always sited by DCC users as one of its great features.

I have seen however two identical engines that would run fine together in DC, not run well together in DCC simply because they have different brands of decoders installed - and then the issue of sound and non sound locos…

Not an issue for me, I would be no sound even if I had DCC, but for others it is a big speed matching issue.

Sheldon