I have read many posts commenting on the CW-80 transformers, but no one ever states why they dislike it so much. So WHY do you guys hate the CW-80 so much, I would like to hear actual reasons (I truly am curious) not just blanket statements of how HORRIBLE it is.
I have quite a few transformers 2 ZWs (an original w/R windings, and a “NEW ZW”) plus MTH Z-500, 750, 1000s, and obviously some CW-80s.( bought the MTH Z series early in the learning curve, and most were acquired in sets) ALL the other transformers (including both ZWs) have a minimum voltage that is so high that my smaller locomotives (especially ones without sound) can not be started smoothly or run at a slow speed. 0-6 or so volts and they just take off like a rocket. Why can’t Lionel and MTH get a lower minimum voltage on their BETTER transformers? even the $429.00 list price ZW, man you would think that for over 400 bucks you could get a decent starting voltage, but it doesn’t seem so.
And as far as appearances go the CW-80s in my opinion have the MTH z series beat hands down they’re not even a close second. The MTH z series to me look like something from a cheap HO starter set. And I absolutely HATE the external power bricks ( yes, I know that the "NEW ZWs use them too, and also that Lionel made the BW-80, a CW with a power brick)
So how about it what are your REASONS for disliking the CW-80s?
I also like the looks of the CW80, but I am disappointed with its performance for the following reasons:
When attempting to run a postwar steamer and blow the whistle, the transformer go into “fold back mode” and gradually kills the power.
Fold back mode. A circuit breaker would be much better since it kicks off instead of just reducing the power.
The delay that results from pushing the direction button and having to wait for the power to slowly come back up. This seems unnecesary.
I prefer the MTH Z1000 because it does not exhibit these traits, there are no compatability issues, and it has more power. But, I like the CW80 for its looks.
Ask anyone from a country who’s mains power is generated at 50Hz and the chances are they will voice their disllike[censored].
The CW-80 DC offset whistle and bell circuits malfuntion on 50Hz causing the whistle and bell to sound continuously. This has caused quiet a few problems on this side of the pond.
It would be nice if Lionel could sort this problem or a least mention in the catalogue what items are not 50Hz compatible to avoid people’s disappointment. And the negative customer feedback that results.
Your average customer is now so used to electrical equipment that can cope with 50Hz/60Hz and variable voltage 110/240V. i.e. Sony playstation 2. That the lack of this sort of multi-national support comes as a complete surprise.
I was on the “other” forum and a Lionel dealer mentioned he sent 20 Lionel Sets to the UK alone at Christmas and that very day he had just posted 12 parcels abroad of which 7 were bound for the UK. From that I would say the foreign markets are well worth looking after.
It seems to me that there have been many postings of the specifics of “why they dislike it so much”. Here is mine from February:
"My principal objection to the CW80 has to do with the upside-down wiring of its outputs, which make it unusable in many popular accessory applications unless you are willing to hook it up in a way that reverses the whistle and bell functions. Lionel has apparently recently fixed this problem. However, they seem not to admit that anything had been wrong and have given us no good way to tell the corrected transformers from the earlier ones without an electrical test. So, if you buy one, be forewarned that you might be getting new-old stock.
"Another design problem is that the CW80 must be loaded with something like a lighted lockon if you expect it to be able to reverse newer locomotives. Not a show-stopper, but a nuisance.
"A third problem that I have with it is the ramping of the output. This is purely a personal preference, that the output should follow the control immediately, as with the transformers I grew up with. You may love it the other way.
“Another thing to watch out for is that the CW80 puts out a distinctly non-sinusoidal waveform. Some folks have reported that some non-Lionel locomotives and accessories misbehave as a result. This waveform also has the quirk that its voltage cannot be read correctly with a conventional AC voltmeter. I have posted a chart several times for correcting the meter reading to the actual (RMS) voltage.”
Bob is absolutely correct: There have been MANY posts, on this and other forums, that more than adequately expressed dissatisfaction with the CW80, complete with detailed reasons. I’ve posted a number of comments on that topic myself in recent years, and will not repeat my concerns here. It’s a subject that has been discussed to death–quite literally.
To be sure, there are some folks who like the CW80 (I like its appearance myself, but not its operation), and those folks should be perfectly content with what they have and the choices they made. If you have a CW80 and like it, more power to you, and you certainly don’t need any justification from anyone else to support your selection.
Well Allan, sorry to have offended you, I guess the statement that you have posted a number of comments in recent years explains a lot as I haven’t been in the forum for years. And I don’t need any justification for my purchases, thank you very much. I was just curious as to why some people weren’t happy with them, as I have seen numerous posts that didn’t give a reason, just said that they are junk. About my only complaint is that Proto-2 locomotives don’t like them. And can you recommend a transformer that does have a near zero minimum voltage, as I have already stated the CW is the only transformer that I have found that will run some locomotives slowly & smoothly (SERIOUS question here, not an argumentative one)
I have been in three rail less than 2 years now, model railroading more than 35 though, and I still am learning a lot about 3R AC trains yet. I came on the forum hoping to learn more and get useful information from other modelers. If you have some actual information it would be appreciated, but the negative attitude is not what the forums were intended for. I’m sorry that I missed all those past forums, but my thread title was very clear about the content, I am sure tha
I, too, had read the reviews of the CW-80. Some of the comments were about the early production models. Last July, I purchased a brand new one on E-Bay for $40. (incl. s&h). I use it to run accessories and a smaller loop. To date, I have had no problems.
I like the appearance. It is not as powerful as my ZW but it serves its purpose.
I think the “Love-Hate” relationship arises from individual experiences with a particular machine and the individual expectations for its performance.
For me, the price was right for the purpose intended.
Challenger, I didn’t detect that Allan had been offended; his reply seems pretty calm and neutral to me. For more detail, you might search “CW80” on the forum. You asked why folks didn’t like the CW80, and your question was answered, with “actual information”, it seems to me. I wonder that you asked for an exposition of the CW80’s faults and then are upset by negativity in the replies.
There are several postwar transformers that can be connected to go down to zero volts, including the popular 1033 and KW.
By the way, you were the one who opened the thread, not Allan.
Lionelsoni, I did ask why people didn’t like it, and no Allan didn’t respond with any info just said that he had posted in the past and wasn’t going to repeat it, offered no info in his reply. I was not upset by any criticism of the CW-80 I was looking for honest answers to a question that I am curious about.
Thank You for the info on the 1033 and the KW, I don’t have any experience with them, this is more the kind of answer that I was looking for
No, I STARTED this thread, Allan had to OPEN it to read it, the title was VERY CLEAR about the content, if he thought that the subject had already been beat to death in previous forums that I had missed, then it was real easy, don’t open the thread. There are plenty of threads posted that I don’t open for various reasons, that don’t interest me, but I don’t go into them then tell them that they shouldn’t have posted, I just don’t open/read them.
Hi Bob, If you go back and read the first three replies to this thread (the third is your first reply to it) these are great examples of the answers that I was hoping for. Specific problems, with well explained answers, I can learn from these replies (as well as other readers also) and this can help the hobby be more enjoyable.
Smile, Trains are Supposed to be Fun,
BTW, that closing line is one that I am known for down at the club, I use it often when one of our dispatchers gets frustrated when things aren’t working out quite right.
Well, Doug, I believe that if you checked the archives of this or just about any other toy train forum, you would find ample threads related to the CW80–my guess is that more threads have been devoted to that transformer, in detail, than to any other power supply in the long history of O gauge transformers. Not all who posted serious concerns to those threads could be wrong.
You asked “WHY do so many people HATE the Lionel CW-80 transformer?” Those are your exact words and the title of this thread. The reasons are many and well documented, I believe, and a simple search should easily lead you to the answers you’re looking for. I opened the thread because I found it somewhat hard to believe that the word hadn’t been adequately spread at this point.
I once owned three of them; now have one that resides in its box, awaiting some future disposition. So I guess I’m fairly well qualified–or was at one point–to comment on this item, which I did on numerous occasions in the hope that it would avoid seeing others subject themselves to disappointed in this fine-looking, but notoriously erratically performing transformer.
Doug,
Only one person has posted that Lionel HAS in FACT fixed the CW-80s… They even would replace them for free if they had been returned within the first year of purchase and the buyer was having problems with them.
I don’t have my two CW-80s with me, but there is an easy way to tell if you have one of the newer models.
Allan, as I already stated, I am a newby to 3 rail, and especially to the forums, looking at the side bar to the left, I notice that you have been on the forums since 8/15/2003, and your last posting was your 1345th posting, now if you look at the side bar on this post you will see that I have been a member of the forums since 3/18/2007, and that this will be my 33rd post. I am sorry that I missed all the other posts about it, and didn’t think to do an archive search on it. I happened to be reading another thread where the question was what do you think were Lionel’s best and worst products? Not surprisingly the CW-80 was on a lot of replies, without many reasons for it. so I asked about it, then thought, hey lets not get off the topic here, and I started this thread(I thought tha
Thank You for the info, just curious, how can you tell if it is an updated CW? Mine work fine for how they are used, but the proto-2 incompatibility is a little frustrating admittedly.
WHY do so many people HATE the Lionel CW-80 transformer?
I think the poor thing started with a bad rap when it did not behave exactly like other transformers (i.e. delayed ramp up power, different “common” terminals, the need for a load to reverse some engines(especially Thomas the Tank). The problem was made worse by really poor technical support (i.e. some of the manuals were incorrect or did not address how to add accessories). One other thing is if the fan fails it is toast for most users. Finally the worse problem (in my opinion) was the batch(es) of DOA transformers that were shipped out in sets. Many a child opened his new train set on a birthday or Christmas day only to find it did not work! That was a HUGE bummer for child and parent and/or anyone that purchased a ZW without the warranty.
Personally, I love the way the CW-80 looks. I do not try to run accessories and trains simultaineously with it and only run PS2.0 locomotives at less than full throttle. The ergonomics make it perfect for use with young children and cheap engines…especially the Lionel starter engines and Beeps.
Jim H
p.s. If you add TMCC remote/command base ($100) to your NEW ZW and set the throttles at about half then you can use the remote to make any conventional locomotive crawl VERY slow.
Just the other day I was thinking how long it has been since we saw a “kill the CW-80” post, and that maybe I should mention it. The point would have been that the new revised CW’s seem to be doing fine. However, I decided to leave sleeping dogs be. Silly me. So, back into the arena once more…
Doug, your question is a good one and I hope you won’t back down. There are several people on this and the other major forum who never miss an opportunity to blast the CW-80. They refuse to acknowledge that it has undergone “continuous product improvement” more or less since it’s inception, but the really big change came as recently as some time during calendar year 2006.
There are two ways to tell a revised one from one of the more troublesome ones. The certain way is to unplug it from the wall socket and disconnect all wires from the device. Then put the probes from an common household ohmmeter across the U-under-A and U-under-B posts. If you see commonality (dead short, zero ohms) you have a revised one. If, on the other hand you see zero ohms across posts A and B, you have an old quirky one.
Another way that SEEMS to work is to look on the bottom of the device and locate a date of manufacture of the form G0906 or 0903. I have been told that the ones with the alpha-prefix are the revised ones, but don’t hold me to it. The passive-aggressive Lionel Customer “Service” technicians have told me (personal communications) that anything with a 2006 date is a revised one, but they always follow it with “I guess.” Why do they have to guess, of all people? The “ohmmeter method” is best.
The problem with MTH PS1 systems is a real bother to MTH fans. One poster on this forum insists that PS1 will work. He is so adamant that I hate to contradict him but my sole example of an MTH locomotive will not run on any CW-80 that I have experience with – despite the fact that I have tried everything that poster
I have had 5 CW-80 transformers. Still have 3 and sold 2 to my brother. All are still working great, only had to replace a blown fuse in one. The rest all worked great, I have never had any problems with them. The blown fuse delt with a old whistle switch that I hooked up wrong.
Well, I guess that I’m not the only one who likes the CW-80 after all. Jim (jimhaleyscomet), you can run PS2 engines OK? Mine don’t like the CWs.
Bfskinner, I can’t get PS2s to work with my CWs very often, horns blow randomly and near continuously. But the PS-1 locomotives (diesel switcher, and a 2-6-0) that I have, not a problem at all, I can even get the couplers to work properly.
Hi laz57, I’ve seen many of your posts, enjoy them, find them interesting and even occasionally learn something from them (hard to beat that)
To everyone else, thanks for all the informative replies, whether you liked the CW-80s or not, I have enjoyed all the posts that dealt with specific problems, that was the point of the post to begin with, to learn more about the hobby, and hopefully avoid some of the mistakes that others have learned from.