While Amtrak has trains radiating to all points on the compass out of Chicago, I’m curious why there isn’t a Florida train. Seems a route through Nashville and Atlanta would generate decent passenger loads.
After the Floridans last derailment on CSX and the train was discontinued. There were talks of reviving it and the then head of CSX stated that would only happen over his dead body. Perhaps attitudes might change slightly after the current STB go between on the NO to Mobile service. However, I do remember that specifically CSX was very hostile to bringing that train back and let it be known via various leaked comments.
Not sure why Amtrak has not pressed the issue other than the original Floridans schedule was horrendously slow and subject to massive weather delays when it snowed…so that is probably why. Operationally, Amtrak had to deal with horrible track, crappy snow operations and fairly massive freight train interference. Amtrak is interested in a extension of Chicago to Indianapolis through Louisville to Nashville but the train would terminate there. So apparently past issues were between Nashville and Jacksonville. If I remember correctly most of the Floridans and Auto Train’s (Louisville departure) derailments were in the deep South.
I think part of the issue was Auto-Train stiffed CSX on payments via bankruptcy. And there was anger over the Floridan derailments because they were thought due to the Amtrak Locomotive trucks or something to that effect (which to me sounds like finger-pointing due to bad track).
Back in the day there were three Chicago- Miami runs, on different routes, on a every third day basis to generate a daily trains between end points - The City of Miami was the IC’s baby; The South Wind was the PRR’s entry and The Dixie Flagler was the C&EI’s train. All three operated on the FEC between Jacksonville and Miami with each train having its own route between Chicago and Jacksonvile. The City of Miami ran via Birmingham and CofG Albany ACL beyond. The South Wind ran via Louisville and L&N Montgomery ACL beyond. The Dixie Flagler ran via Evansville and L&N Atlanta ACL beyond - it was discontinued in 1957.
With the comng of Amtrak in 1971 only the South Wind’s route survived and even then it was only until November 1971.
In simple terms, there wasn’t sufficient business to warrant continued operation.
In today’s world, CSX controls most of the routes between Chicago & Jacksonville as well as being Amtrak’s only route from Jacksonville all the other Florida destinations. CSX will fight any expansion of Amtrak service, especially on routes that are currently freight only.
Back in the day, most Florida traffic seemed like it was bound for Miami. In the past 20-30 years since Disney World was built, a sizeable segment goes to Orlando or Tampa.
There were more trains than those three. Now nobody would want to spend that much time on a train.
While Amtrak has trains radiating to all points on the compass out of Chicago, I’m curious why there isn’t a Florida train. Seems a route through Nashville and Atlanta would generate decent passenger loads.
There aren’t enough people still living that would put up with Amtrak from Chicago to Miami or Orlando.
You can’t make a blanket statement like that.
There is a very large retired community in South Florida from Wisconsin and Northern Illinois. A number of them cannot or do not want to fly and would happily pay to have their car transported on a private carrier if the train was available vs driving their car themselves. Thats just the retired folks. Some college kids would take the train for Spring Break if the coach fares were cheaper than air and the train was faster than the bus.
Amtrak could make a train like that work with the proper timetable, marketing and price points on the tickets AND it could even partner with a private auto-carrier firm in a pseudo AUTO-TRAIN operation without having to buy rail auto carriers.
There was a brief period when the Floridian and the Louisville section of the Auto Train operated as one train. However, the two trains were still completely separate operations with regards to equipment and marketing (?).
Based on traveling times “IF” auto train near indianopolis . Maybe even BEECH Grove? Then near Pittsburg. Combine trains and follow Capitol limited route toward WASH, Then use the CSX bypass thru Virginia AVE Tunnel and then on to Sanford.
That’s a the roundabout way to get to Florida.
With all the mergers, abandonments, etc over the last 45 years, are any of the legacy routes still viable?
I just found this from 2020, rather curious that Amtrak did not mention this at all as a possibility after the infrastructure bill passed. I think if they can swing Chicago to Nashville…then Nashville to Atlanta as the link below suggests. Whats left? Atlanta to Savannah to Jacksonville? Heck you could easily bus from Atlanta to Savannah to connect with the NYC to Florida trains.
https://atlanta.curbed.com/2020/2/20/21144408/atlanta-nashville-amtrak-passenger-rail-gdot
Though I think Nashville to Atlanta would be problematic for the host railroad. Maybe not if the Feds advanced enough money to make it a corridor.
“alphas
There aren’t enough people still living that would put up with Amtrak from Chicago to Miami or Orlando.”
"You can’t make a blanket statement like that.
There is a very large retired community in South Florida from Wisconsin and Northern Illinois. A number of them cannot or do not want to fly and would happily pay to have their car transported on a private carrier if the train was available vs driving their car themselves. Thats just the retired folks. Some college kids would take the train for Spring Break if the coach fares were cheaper than air and the train was faster than the bus.
Amtrak could make a train like that work with the proper timetable, marketing and price points on the tickets AND it could even partner with a private auto-carrier firm in a pseudo AUTO-TRAIN operation without having to buy rail auto carriers."
Alright, I’ll amend my statement to say “There’s not enough people alive that would be willing to pay what was needed for Amtrak not to take a huge financial bath on the Chicago to Florida service.”
As for Amtrak beating express bus service offered by the various carriers either financially or time-wise, I doubt very much that’s possible given Amtrak’s record in recent years. Of course, the Feds could always agree to spend hundreds of millions or more to upgrade the freight rail lines enough to provide for a train a day Chicago to Florida. I certainly hope not from a taxpayer standpoint. As for students riding a train to Florida, they certainly are not going to do it for a week spring break or similar. They will either drive straight through, fly using the discount or charter airlines, or take chart
This could be applied even more so to the west coast trains, but they exist.
In Amtrak‘s plan for the future, Nashville, Chattanooga to Atlanta, and Atlanta, Macon to Savannah are to be implemented. Both the FRA and Amtrak want Chicago, Indianapolis to Louisville, but only the FRA wants Louisville to Nashville.
Georgia has made plans for a maglev from Atlanta to Chattanooga. Tennessee would like Nashville to Atlanta. People from Kentucky and other northern states would like a train to Louisville and then to Nashville.
CSX in 2018 under Jim Foote and following E. Hunter Harrison‘s PSR guidelines, had the former L&N from Cincinnati to Louisville to Nashville up for sale. CSX had a shorter way from Chicago to Nashville. CSX also had Nashville to Chattanooga for sale. CSX freight was mostly going to Birmingham and south. CSX also had most of the B&O route from St Louis across southern Illinois and Indiana toward Cincinnati and a lot of other routes for sale. What CSX still has for sale or for the right price is an open question. PSR might still demand some sales.
Why would the FRA care about passenger service?
Lived 2 years in Louisville suburbs and 18 months near Nashville the route just South of Louisville is almost mountainous with it’s grades and curves and is very scenic. Then just before Nashville there is this large drop in elevation (on freeway, not sure if it is mimic’d on rail line). Anyway putting a passenger train on that portion of the single track line has to be murder on CSX frieght operations.
Can’t speak for Nashville to Atlanta but I would guess given what I know about geography / topography, that line is probably rife with sharp curves and steep grades as well.
Perhaps the route of the City of Miami subject to some modifications?
Mission
The Federal Railroad Administration’s mission is to enable the safe, reliable, and efficient movement of people and goods for a strong America, now and in the future.
Mountainous, as well. It climbs over the Cumberland Plateau and even in diesel times there was a helper grade at Cowan.
On CSX Nashville to Atlanta is nominally all single track in addition to the grades and curvature.
He probably means the Midwest Regional plan of mid-October 2021.
On the other hand, there is a very fast stretch of line adjacent to Sonora, and I suspect there are other parts of the trackage in Kentucky where the line would support high speed. I believe this is part of the route that AutoTrain used from 1978. I believe much of the freight coming south diverts west at Bowling Green, before the grade change; I certainly see the line diverging substantially east before the ‘drop’ but I have not ridden or chased that portion.
And that is at the heart of the matter – I get the impression that the government agencies are gearing up to enforce Amtrak priority on these and other segments, if my reading of the actions in the extension of service east from New Orleans is a guide.
Personally I don’t think there is insufferable peak traffic either north or south of Bowling Green that could not accommodate an Amtrak train (or AutoTrain consist) but it should be easy to take traffic counts to establish this for the anticipated ‘windows’ one way or t’other. There should be little difficulty initially running at whatever ‘track speed’ is to fit in with PSR traffic – which won’t want to be speeding up and slowing down anyway.
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Can’t speak for Nashville to Atlanta but I would guess given what I know about geo