I apologize if this question has been asked before. In the process of driving through some rather heavy fog last weekend this question occurred to me. In cab-signaled territory are cab-signaled equipped trains allowed to run at normal track speed through heavy fog or is speed restricted due to the limited visibility? The same question applies if the train is running through heavy rain or snow. In ABS territory proceeding at very restricted speed is understandable especially under conditions when the signal may not be visible until the train is right at the signal before the crew can see the indication. It’s cab-signaled territory that I’m curious about. Thanks
Welcome, Old Viking!
I have an idea that cab signaling would be all right to run through at maximum authorized speed. But I think you should wait for a definitive answer from some of the people on the Forum who operate in our cab-signal territory.
In either Cab Signal or ABS - Track speed, unless otherwise restricted by Special Instruction, Train Order, or Signal Indication.
Nick
So long as the train is operating on Clear Signals, be they Cab Signal, Wayside Signals or Clear Block in either DTC or TWC rules environments…Track Speed is allowed.
Where severely reduced speeds occur during foggy operations is where either signal indications or other operating conditions require operation at Restricted Speed…which is routinely defined as operating at a speed that will permit stopping the train within 1/2 the range of vision of a obstruction. Restricted speed routinely has a upper limit to it, being 15 to 20 MPH depending upon which company’s rule book you are operating under.
Back in the late 1960’s when I was clerking for the GN I got an occassional cab ride, mostly to or from Seattle. The west side of the Cascades are wet, even in the summer and I will never forget a westbound trip in an F unit with the engineer reputed to be the best on the division. We were in fog for many miles. The entire trip was at track speed and I could not see much more than 100 feet ahead, if that. It was a wall of white. Now and then a signal would pop out of the fog and be gone in a flash. What really inpressed me was that now and then Bob would start to whistle for a crossing which would flash by just as he let go of the cord. Yes, I was impressed. He clearly knew his railroad.
Mac
First - [#welcome]
Although you were asking about operation in cab-signalled territory in fog, I think the more interesting question is operation in ABS or any other signalled territory under those same adverse visibility weather conditions.
As the posts above state, in general even then the train is permitted to run at track speed, as long as Green = Proceed signals are encountered. The reason is how railroad signal systems are set up - they usually prepare the crew for the next and following signal’s indication as well. Here’s a brief explanation, greatly simplified:
If all of the previous signals were Green, the crew need not see the upcoming signal until they get to it. If it’s also Green, still no problem. Otherwise, the worst it could/ should be there and then is Yellow = Caution, Approach Next Signal Prepared to Stop. So at that point they have a full block length to slow down to a crawl and be looking for that next signal, prepared to stop short of it. If it’s Red, that’s what they do. If it’s again Yellow, they can proceed along the same way - prepared to stop at the next signal. If it’s back to Green, then they can again proceed at track speed.
The other point to note, is that once a train passes or has ‘accepted’ a signal, the circuitry should not allow anything else in the next block in front of the
[quote user=“Paul_D_North_Jr”]
First - 
Although you were asking about operation in cab-signalled territory in fog, I think the more interesting question is operation in ABS or any other signalled territory under those same adverse visibility weather conditions.
As the posts above state, in general even then the train is permitted to run at track speed, as long as Green = Proceed signals are encountered. The reason is how railroad signal systems are set up - they usually prepare the crew for the next and following signal’s indication as well. Here’s a brief explanation, greatly simplified:
If all of the previous signals were Green, the crew need not see the upcoming signal until they get to it. If it’s also Green, still no problem. Otherwise, the worst it could/ should be there and then is Yellow = Caution, Approach Next Signal Prepared to Stop. So at that point they have a full block length to slow down to a crawl and be looking for that next signal, prepared to stop short of it. If it’s Red, that’s what they do. If it’s again Yellow, they can proceed along the same way - prepared to stop at the next signal. If it’s back to Green, then they can again proceed at track speed.
The other point to note, is that once a train passes or has ‘accepted’ a signal, the circuitry should not allow anything
[quote user=“wabash1”]
[quote user=“Paul_D_North_Jr”]
First -
Although you were asking about operation in cab-signalled territory in fog, I think the more interesting question is operation in ABS or any other signalled territory under those same adverse visibility weather conditions.
As the posts above state, in general even then the train is permitted to run at track speed, as long as Green = Proceed signals are encountered. The reason is how railroad signal systems are set up - they usually prepare the crew for the next and following signal’s indication as well. Here’s a brief explanation, greatly simplified:
If all of the previous signals were Green, the crew need not see the upcoming signal until they get to it. If it’s also Green, still no problem. Otherwise, the worst it could/ should be there and then is Yellow = Caution, Approach Next Signal Prepared to Stop. So at that point they have a full block length to slow down to a crawl and be looking for that next signal, prepared to stop short of it. If it’s Red, that’s what they do. If it’s again Yellow, they can proceed along the same way - prepared to stop at the next signal. If it’s back to Green, then they can again proceed at track speed.
The other point to note, is that once a train passes or has ‘accepted’ a signal, the circuitr
Of course that can also depend if you are operating in PRR cab signal territory in a non-equipped engine. Then the answer would be dependent whether you are operating under rule 550 or 556…
The first rule book I read was the Southern 1943 book, which was superceded in the mid-fifties. It called for a full stop at an ABS (numbered) signal displaying red (unless it had a “G” on the support) before proceeding at restricted speed.
Incidentally, all signals that I have seen on the CN are numbered, whether they are lineside or interlocking.
I definitely remember when a number-plate on a signal meant that all-red aspects meant an indication of stop-and-proceed. I distinctly remember when Chessie System changed this to “Restricted Proceed”, and the problems it caused. A traveling-engineer friend of mine asked me how he should go about requiring his engineers to continue to stop at these signals, since he was concerned about speed control on a downhill operation (literally, back then–not to be confused with more recent times when all of CSX was going downhill in all directions). I suggested removing the number plates (as CNW had done on some of its block signals in the city); don’t know if he took that advice. I also remember that Chessie went back to stop-and-proceed for a time after that.
Restricted Proceed became the rule on Union Pacific only a few years ago–it was stop-and-proceed before then.
Carl, do you think that an upside-down G would have given the message that the engineer had to stop so as to be sure to keep his train under control?[:)]
…
Why is it scary? How does lack of wayside signals have anything to do with grade crossings? If anything is wrong with the rails, the cab signals will give instant notification. A lot better than relying on waysides, IMO.
[(-D] That’s too funny to pass by unnoticed. Thanks, Carl ! [tup]
- Paul.
I was searching the forums tonight to find out about “Stop and proceed”.
Why would some RR’s / locations have a “stop and proceed” rather than just “restricted proceed”?
If an engineer is qualified on a route, would’nt they know to have their train under control when approaching a downgrade?
For a specific question, I watched a CPR train West of London Ontario stop and proceed at the entrance to a siding. The switch was already lined for the main. Why did the train have to stop?
Thanks,
David
So on a sort-of-related question, what are the rules like regarding a case where visibility is so poor that travel is impossible? Like heavy fog/rain/snow so dense you can’t see the ground in front of you. I encountered those conditions while driving and I just pulled over and waited it out. Is there anything written into railroad rules for that or is it a common sense thing?
The last time this question came up, it (“Fog”) generated a heated exchange and some silly responses suggesting there were few conditions where one could not operate at a speed higher than 15 or 20 mph. Looks like common sense is prevailing this time.
David asked: “Why would some RR’s / locations have a “stop and proceed” rather than just “restricted proceed”?”
It used to be that “stop and proceed” meant that you waited five minutes before proceeding; I do not know when this was changed. On single track, it could be that a train you were following set the signal to red–or a train coming towards you set it to red. If it is one that you are following that set the signal, you could safely proceed, perhaps expecting to see a fusee and hear two torpedoes. If it is one coming towards you, its engineer will have had an approach signal, and would be ready to stop at the signal which had stopped you. Waiting five minutes might give that train enough time for you to see it before proceeding.
In 1971, I rode the Texas Chief from Houston to Fort Worth; we went through some heavy rain which caused problems with the signals (dirty ballast?), causing many to be at stop. We did stop at each one, but then immediately proceeded after stopping. I did not ask the conductor about not waiting, but it may have been that he had verbal permission from the dispatcher because there was no other train on that part of the line at the time.
If it is a train headed at you on the same track…
You have bigger …[problems than a Stop & Proceed signal can handle!