This hobby seems to be intensely personal for many of us. There’s tons and tons of ego in it for almost all of us. So personal that we sometimes find ourselves saying things we either know are not true, wish they were, or don’t care but just want to win the discussion at all costs. Then, to our horror, we find that someone else who knows better calls us on it, and we are left embarrassed or wanting to lash out with personal attacks to deflect the other person’s well-deserved rebuke.
What we type here is plain for everyone to see. So, since what we type here is plainly seen, it is open to conjecture if it is merely opinion. That means you may get nothing more than a dissenting opinion in return, in which case the discussion is moot and over…period. Or, you may get reams of data and verifiable information fed back to you that clearly shows you to be at least partially…ummm…mistaken. If you aren’t completely certain of your facts, or what you wish were the case, say so. If you have proof, something that we can all see that you didn’t author that is also verifiable from yet third sources, offer them as links or quote them liberally in your text message…just give credit for the work to be honest and fair to the author…and to your readers, those whom you are trying to convince. Some will not be convinced, no matter how ironclad your information, no matter how verifiable.
My point in writing this is that our arguments take on a nasty and childish tone once they become directed and personal, usually also at the expense of clarity and factuality. Even if you think you are being clever by merely stating that “this is silly” and not actually calling its author silly…or worse…, none of us will be fooled. For me, that also means you have just lost the argument because calling someone a fool is an ad hominem
I hope it is a good thing that there are several views so far, and no comments. Maybe it just means that little more needs to be said. If so, I am content with that.
I’d like to take you up on your arguement, but then I’d be on the WRONG side of it!! LOL
I must say that this forum is generally well behaved. I don’t recall seeing many posts that devolved into name-calling contests. Or maybe those posts were deleted before I saw them?
I enjoy my visits here, partly because the atmosphere is friendly and helpful. I can’t say that about all the other forums. Too bad.
A couple of months ago I was on the verge of giving up on this forum. Between the trolls and the people arguing about everything that was posted, the people posting just to see their “post count go up” it had degenerated into morass of ego’s.
When Bergie and the staff of Model Roalroader decided to assign other people to help referee this forum I think and hope was the turning point. I don’t post very often but read the forum everyday and I have seen a big difference in the quality and the tone of many of the posts! If I have some information to pass on I post and could care less about my “post count”! Their are some really good knowledgeable people on this forum and many of them go out of their way to pass on imformation to the rest of us and to them I say “Thank You”! Now if they could find a way to moderate the many varied Ego’s on this forum it would really be great![:-^]
I just wanted to say Thank You to Bergie and all the new “Deputy Moderators” and add that I don’t envy you the task before you![:)]
Just don’t get too trigger-happy on that lock switch, please, Crandel and other moderators.
On rare occasion (and I do mean rare) what looks to be a hot-button topic destined for the scrap bin turns out to be a fascinating and lively debate. A great example was the model railroading as an art form thread a couple of years or so ago. For the most part the participants kept their egos in check, and the arguing went on for many pages. The resulting back-and-forth in it was a pile of fun!
So use a lot of discretion before killing something, particularly “…on what’s left of a positive note,” please. Sometimes things just pause and then resume with renewed vigor. Please remember that, quite often, truncating the bad prematurely also tends to truncate the opposite end - the good, leaving one with only the mediocre.
I think Selector’s point is that it really isn’t up to the moderators which threads to lock or delete, it’s really up to us. We, the forum members, decide what to put in our threads in the first place. We can decide to maintain a lively, on-topic and civil discussion, or we can let a thread degenerate to the point where a grown-up has to step in and do something about it.
So, if you want to know why a thread is getting locked, take a look in the mirror. Netequette is a learned thing. We aren’t born with it, and to many it’s not natural. Think and re-read your entries before you hit the Post button, and we’ll all be better off.
A very intelligent and well written post. However, as good a suggestion as it is, I think the few people who really need to hear this message won’t get it nor pay much attention to it. So that basically leaves you preaching to the choir.
I’m not a fan of lecturing the masses due to the infractions of a few people. I think the most effective way to handle these types of situations is to directly address those ‘few’ at the time of an infraction. Otherwise, you are at risk of over-moderation because I think the vast majority of the members here are not causing trouble.
I rarely see any of the “controversial” posts because when a thread gets to be more than a few pages long most of the sane information has already been posted, and they often degenerate into rants or speeches on something or another that has nothing to do with the original post. So I don’t bother looking at very many multi page threads.
I noticed this many years ago when I got most of my online hobby information on Usenet newsgroups. These are not moderated, and often threads got hijacked by someone with an agenda of some type and quickly became uninteresting. Often someone would make some simple remark like “just like President XXX said”, and the thread would turn into a political discussion. Boring!
If anyone else used to follow the rec.models.railroad newsgroup, you owe it to yourself to check it out just to see how far it has decended into mostly spam and useless messages. I did so just yesterday and see it is now a total waste of time. You can check it out through Google Groups. The same for a few photography groups I followed - three quarters of the messages are spam pushing sneakers and shoes(?), mostly from China I think; a good portion of the rest are from a guy seemingly on a crusade to discredit the British MI5 service for one reason or another.
Remember these newsgroups are NOT moderated, and they have turned into worthless places to post!
Crandell,A moderator’s job is not a easy one and one that common sense plays a major roll.
As you know I believe in keeping things simple and it shows in my moderating duties…My method is simple…A warning to calm down and if that fails out comes the lock-its as simple as that and while rare I will request the suspension of the member if all other avenues has been depleted.There are exceptions to the rules when immediate locking or suspension is require and deletion if possible.These type of topics include flammatory topics,links to pron sites,spam etc,etc.
Ahh the walk we walk…We are either to heavy handed or not doing our jobs.One thing as any moderator will tell you is you can’t please everybody while doing your appointed duty in protecting the best interest of the forum and its members…
Common sense is the moderator’s best friend.Common sense and experience will teach us when to intervene or just to moderate a topic by closely following the topic…After all there is a difference between a gentleman’s debate and one that has turn ugly with unneeded name calling and comments.
Again,I wish you and the other moderators the best of luck.
Mark, you are absolutely right. We get it. Just so you know, all of us, Bergie included, do a lot of behind-the-scenes self-talk. We pass ideas past each other, we ask each other if what we propose to do (or have already done) is/was the right thing. So far, we seem to be in full accord with one another.
I speak for myself…I am acutely sensitive to imposing my own biases or personality, even my own interests, on the forum every time I think to act on something that seems to be objectionable. As a human, I will at least partly succumb to those influences most of the time. What I hope you accept is that I am aware of it, and that I try hard to put myself in the shoes of those who have already contributed, and to the designs of the originating poster. I do not want to do this forum, the membership, a disservice…ever. Yet, sometimes it seems right to act unilaterally, and I have no regrets. I did recently regret a decision in the trainsmagazine.com forum next door, and apologized for my intrusion. The guys there were very pleased that I had continued to listen to them and that I learned enough to recognize my error…and that I apologized to them.
You can count on me to do the same here. I am sure Tom and Ken would agree. We don’t just serve Kalmbach here, we are members with you, and we want very much to serve you.
If you have a strong opinion that any one of us has made an error, send us an explanatory pm or email. State your reasoning, let us think about what you have said, and we’ll get back with what makes sense to us. If we get enough dissent, we may have to reverse our decisions, but it will be by mutual agreement, not unilateral. The only such clout here is Bergie’s.
I hope that mollifies you; we are not bullies, we don’t want that tone in the forum, but neither do we want the biggest egos to run rampant here setting a tone that keeps newbies a
It almost seems strange that people will get so intense about even model railroading, but we are human and things do happen. I think overall everyone gets along here but I agree let’s not get things outta hand. This is for everyone who enjoys our hobby and we can certainly have good discussions and help each other in a peaceful manner.
Thank-you, Brakie (Larry). That means a lot. It is, by any standard, “work”. It is now an obligation that I have undertaken, as you only know too well. Same for Tom and Ken, they are online more often because they have a job to do. I won’t say it is a burden, because few of us will carry something like that voluntarily. What costs us, in an emotional way, is having to deal with cross, uninformed, bitter, hurt, and otherwise contrary personalities that belong to living human beings…some are truly miserable and alone, and it makes me feel bad having to bring the axe down on something they post. For others, it’s all about them…their world, their modelling, their huge banks of worldly knowledge, and I
Maybe the tone of my post didn’t come across as intended.
I’m not miffed at all at your post, or at the actions the moderators have been taking. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I used to spend more time on the Trains.com forums than I have over the last few months, largely because of exactly the things the user/moderators have been keeping in check recently - personal attacks, hijacked threads and other inappropriate use of the forums.
The job you guys have been doing is exceptional. All I ever see now are the occasional comments referring to some bad behavior you’ve already expunged.
No ruffled feathers over what you posted, Crandell. I only intended to add a note of caution not to be too quick on the “thread lock” button is all. But when it’s needed, of course it should be used.
Mark, my reply was probably too long and covered too much. I lost myself. [:I]
Let me assure you that I understand your request that we not be too quick to throw cold water on what might turn out to be one of the best and most useful threads the forum has seen. We should be careful in that respect.
My reply here will be simple. Maintain a decent level of ettiquette and we can exchange information (whether that be factual details or opinions of what worked best in the past) without sliding into the dark abyss of having the moderators decide if they need to step in.
For the record the mods here have my vote of support for their actions. Issues are dealt with in a quick and quiet manner, so much so that if you are paying close attention you probably didn’t realize there was an issue at all.
Personally, I “feel” like the fun-quota is down a little. I “think” it may be for the general better-ness of the forum, but it doesn’t “feel” that way. Maybe I shouldn’t have even posted. Sorry.