So take a train like the Cardinal (Chicago to NYC via Indianapolis, Cincinnati, DC, and Philadelphia). Obviously it leaves Chicago with a diesel. Once it hits electrified rail (I think from DC on to NYC), does the diesel stay on the train and take it all the way into Penn Station or is the diesel then replaced with an electric locomotive?
The Cardinal is primarily a Washington-Chicago train but motive power for the through cars would be changed in Washington. On the other hand, the Pennsylvanian changes power in Philadelphia, even though the electrified trackage extends to Harrisburg.
Usually and virtually all power on the Corridor is electric. Empire Corridor trains either have dual locomotives or are changed at Renssalear
It just depends. At times when there was a shortage of electric motors AMTRAK changed all trains that O & D south of WASH and the Pennsylvanian, Braoadway, Keystone trains at PHL saving about 7 - 8 motors. Also when the New Haven - BOS CAT was finished for a time some trains continued to go diesel northeast of New Haven until all motors were operational. Remember the problems with the E-60s and HHP-8s that sideline them many days causing a very low availability.
Henry, what’s the power change at Renssalear? Is it to dual-use locomotives?
Does Amtrak ever change at Croton-Harmon like Metro-North does?
It is illegal to operate a diesel locomotive in NYC, so even if one were to be on a train in NYP, it would have to be towed by an electric loco.
I am quite certain that Amtrak does not use Croten Harmon for power change. And will put the dual modes on at Rensselear to go east (south). I don’t believe they use the duals west of Rensselear, but I may be wrong.
I agree with you, Henry. I admit that my experience along the Hudson is limited, but the times that I gone either north or south, there was no change at Croton-Harmon–and I have witnessed several changes at Rensselaer, when going through, and when boarding or detraining.
Johnny
Hi, Dual mode locos do go to Vermont on the Ethan Allen Express and the Vermonter. I don’t know if they go to Montreal on the Adirondack. The Lake Shore changes power at Albany-Rensselear. Amtrak does not change power at Croton. As for diesel locomotives not being allowed to operate in NY City, that may be the law, but…
I hear that Empire Connection trains use diesel in the tunnel there, since it is also equipped for ventilation.
Still a fascinating topic!!
Amtrak trains #48/49 (“Lake Shore Limited”) change power at ALB where the train is split-joined. Eastbound, #48 receives a Dual-mode P32DM(s). The thru-loco(s) carry the Boston section (#448) eastward. I really don’t know how far, beyond ALB the DMs might go.
Commuting on the New Haven, “back in the days…” ('65-'68), the FL-9s were in charge, unless you were luck and got a train with an EP-5 “Jet”. The “no Diesel” rule, in the Park Avenue Tunnel, was blatantly ignored. If a FL-9 had its 3d-rail shoes clipped off, for various reasons (mostly “operator headspace”), it would have to run on Diesel to GCT. I think most of this was “operator laziness”, especially on departing (from GCT) trains, as the shoes would have been replaced on the RIP track. It was the engineer’s responsibility to raise, and lower, the pneumatically-operated third-rail shoes at the NYC boundaries. I never heard of an un-raised/un-lowered pantograph being clipped off at Woodlawn, NY. If so, the crew would REALLY have to report to their management!
Dunno what the limits on the “West Side Line” are, but I imagine that the BLET crews do what is “easiest”. Take that, Bloomberg! Check it out! Another $1,200,000 ought to work!
Hays
The FL9 diesel into GCT was as much a Metro North problem as an Amtrak problem and it was solved once maintenance of both track and power was up to snuff. For a while, P-motors were put back into service, engines changed again both at Croton-Harmon and at “my station” North White Plains, on occasion. I have NEVER heard of any Amtrak train running into Penn Station on diesel power. Ever! The dual power feature is used always.
I remember a time in April 1968 taking a New Haven train from Springfield, MA to NY headed by the FL9’s. I swear the diesel engine was still gurgling strong within the confines of Pennsylvania Station.
The NYC tunnel where diesels are run is the one under Riverside Park sometimes known as the “Freedom Tunnel,” now call the “Empire Connection.” Only the new, short tunnel that was built in the 1990s that runs from this tunnel under the Javits Center to Penn Station is electrified at all. The Riverside Park tunnel already had adequate ventilation when it was built in the 1930s and was abandoned for several decades before being cleaned up and re-activated for Empire Service from Penn Station.
My 2 cents worth. Somewhere I saw a pic of an Amtrak FL-9 in Toronto. (in the 1990’s I think probably earlier)
Rgds IGN
Amtrak’s GE P32DMs (Dual-Modes) run from ALB (Albany-Rensselaer) and beyond, to NYP (New York Penn Station). Metro-North’s P32DMs run from Poughkeepsie to NYG (Grand Central Terminal). They both change to straight electric operation at CRT (Croton-Harmon). Amtrakers can run into NYG if necessary. The “Riverside Tunnel” is not actually a tunnel, but a semi-roofed over part of the line, all with third-rail electrification: CRT-NYP. Of course, the GEs are more reliable than the old EMD FL-9s and don’t need to run on Diesel in the city.
BTW, Diesel operation is not banned in New York City, only in the confines of the real tunnels in Manhattan, if even there. The original ban was against steam locomotives. CPR, CSX, P&W, NYA, LIRR, etc. all run Diesels in the “city”. The “city” is a big place, consisting of five counties/boroughs. Never heard of anyone getting a ticket for running on Diesel in the confines. One of the last-ditch efforts of the New York Central was to tie a couple of Upper Harlem RDCs to the tail of an express from Brewster to GCT. They idled all the way from Brewster and were usually towed out, as a new train, via a loop track to cut down on dwell time in GCT.
I think what BNSFwatcher says makes sense. Steam was banned but not really diesels. If so, there would be no trucks or buses. Railroads, especially passenger railroad lines, were already electrified when diesels finally came along in force so the roads saw no reason to bail out of electricity. In the long run it has been a good move for them and the city environment…
Amtrak can’t change to electric at Croton-Harmon-- their engines can’t use NY Central third rail with their everyday shoe. Dunno how easy it is to switch the engine’s shoe, but I doubt the engineer can do it.
If you stand on the platform at Yonkers I think you’ll find the Metro-North engine-hauled trains are all running in diesel too.
I don’t think that even the FL9’s ran as electrics as soon as they reached the third rail. Based on what I’ve read, even when they were new they operated under diesel power until around 125th Street.
Sorry but when I watch all the tunnel videos for Freedom Tunnel (and Riverside) they do not show any third rail or catenary even in the skinny sections. Furthermore the engines sure sound and look like they are running on diesel in those videos. While at Croton-Harmon waiting for my Metro-North ride I watched several Amtrak diesels chugging right up and down the line in diesel. A much earlier discussion on these forums also said that Amtrak runs diesel at the earliest opportunity to save money. I’d like to see some more pictures of the Freedom Tunnel (I have seen hundreds) but I cannot see any kind of electric traction system on them.
The Penn Station tunnel’s third-rail is over-running, but the NYC third-rail from Croton-Harmon is under-running, so Amtrak runs in diesel mode straight down to around 50th street where the Penn Station electrification starts.
Some of this can be observed by some unusual moves:
Note this unusual move of Amtrak on NYC track detouring from the Empire Connection. Note the power used on the return trip at 1:45 of the first video. Very interesting stuff. The railfans call them “tow jobs.”
Tow-job: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zq4CXRfWB8
More tow-jobs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzxFt5OFgoY
Here is another video of an AMTK train at GCT with some explanation of the third-rail issue with Amtrak in the description:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgYnIi82A80
From a video comment: "Besides the over-running shoes that Amtrak’s P32AC-DM’s have, their locomotives also do not have an escape hatch in the nose of their units, so to go into GCT, They needed to tack one (or two)of our P32AC-DM’s on the head end and their unit(s) are then completely shut down.
Hope this helps.