On a recent trip to NYC I noticed an open stretch of otherwise underground track West of 10th Avenue and South of 49th Street. There were three tracks the center one well used the others not so much. From maps it appears to head towards Penn Station and it appears to be part of the Empire Corridor. My question is: the tracks did not appear to be electrified, no third rail or catenary. I didn’t think diesel power was allowed into Penn Station or GCT
One of the tracks does have an LIRR-type third rail for the dual-power Amtrak locomotives and leads to the tunnel under LIRR’s Carpenter Yard into the West throat of Penn. Sta. The other two tracks are remaining from the “Hi Line” operation days. I do not know what they are used for now, if anything. They were not equpped with third rail. The connection from Penn. Sta. to the double-track West Side Line is single track at that point. Perhaps the other two tracks were left in place for capacity expansion in the future.
The dual-power locomotives transition between diesel and electric around 66th Street if my memory is correct. Unless the transition has been moved farther south and some third rail removed. Possible.
North of 66th Street there is no third rail on the West Side Line up to Spuyten Dyvel. North of that point there is Metr North underruning third rail which Amtrak does not use, using diesel on that part of the run.
I believe the New York City ordinance says there will be no steam locomotives operating on Manhattan Island and does not mention diesels. However, I believe the railroads themselves extended the concept of no diesels since they had already installed electrification. Railroads have acknowledged the dangers of diesel fumes especially in the tunnels and have worked to keep diesels to a minimum…even with today’s lower emission diesels and the large amount of emissions from buses and trucks.
Today as far as I know there is no place in Manhattan where Amtrak trains run at ground level. Just outside of NYP there is a deep hole which is open to the air but that is far below ground level. Otherwise they are either in NYP or in a tunnel.
Even the trains to Albany and west leave from NYP and go through a tunnel. They may just cross Manhattan to get to the Hudson River track–to be honest I’m not sure–but other than that possibility there is no place.
The West Side line for Empire State service is basically at ground level but under roadways, streets and buildings so that it seems it is underground.
OK Henry. I stand corrected with regard to Empire State service. Actually I wondered how it is possible to go up the east bank of the Hudson River without crossing Manhattan at some point.
CP12 (11.8 miles from Grand Central and 10.2 miles from Penn Station), above Grand Central, is the junction between the line into Penn Station and the line from Grand Central to Albany. Actually the line into Penn Station does not have to cross Manhattan.
Neither line ‘crosses’ Manhattan - but both run North-South through a lot of Manhattan real estate. Most of that 10.2 miles from NYP to the junction just north of Spuyten Duyvil is on Manhattan Island.
When that ‘No steam on Manhattan’ ordinance was written the diesel locomotive wasn’t even a gleam in anyone’s eye.
Chuck
Old Corneal sure started something when he brought that horse car line.
Getting back to the original question, 3rd rail electrification extends only up to about 40th Street on the West Side Line which is a couple of hundred feet before the double track line merges down to a single track. Catenary also extends to about the same point as well for some reason… possibly to send an electric motor to tow an Empire Corridor train into Penn Station if for some reason the P32-DC cannot switch from diesel to electric.
A 1999 employees timetable restricted AC motors except for E60CPs from passing “A” onto the Empire Connection. Diesel operation isn’t completely restricted - Amtrak GPs on work trains are often seen at Penn.
Some history on the West Side Line from Kalmbach’s New York Central in the Hudson Valley. In 1934 the NYC first electrified the line (under-running 3rd rail) as far south as 23rd Street. Electric freight motors brought the trains in, and switching and street running was done with tri-power locos (kind of a hybrid that could work off of 3rd rail or charge batteries with a diesel.) NYC turned off the 3rd rail in 1959 and operated with diesels. Conrail ceased using the line in 1983, and eventually sold it to ATK who installed the over-running 3rd rail.
I stand corrected about the extent of LIRR-type third rail on the West Side line. However, in answer to the “cross-Manhattan” question, the connection between the Spuyten Dyvel Junction where trains divert either along the Hudson to Penn Station (much under tunnel under Riverside Park and the rest at ground level) and the Harlem line (also used by New Haven line trains) at the Mott-Haven Junction, is in The Bronx, along the north and east banks of the Harlem River. This is the E-W connection you are looking for. All Metro North Hudson Division trains use it, and Amtrak used it for Empire Service and the Lake Shore before the rerout into Penn Sta. It is equipped with underruning Metro North third rail/
AMTK uses dual mode Genesis locomotives from Albany to NYC. These are equipped with LIRR/NYCT style over-riding shoes which are retracted while operating north of Spuyten Dyvel (Spitting Devil). MNCR has similar Genesis locomotives with under-riding shoes. The MNCR locomotives also have an escape hatch in the nose of the locomotive which is not found on the AMTK locomotives. The Park Avenue tunnel clearances do not permit the use of the side doors for escape from a locomotive.
AMTK service into NYP is by diesel through most of the west-side tunnel which is very well ventilated as is the Park Avenue tunnel. The engines must be shut down before entering Penn Station which is very deep and is poorly ventilated. AMTK can and does run its trains through NYP with just the one locomotive on the point, but requires LIRR to have a locomotive at both ends of the train rather than using a push-pull arrangement with a cab car at the opposite end. This is because third rail gaps in NYP can be as much as 600’ long, and from a cab-car the engineer would have no idea where his locomotive was in relation to a gap, where as AMTK always runs locomotive on the point, and the engineer can see where the gaps are and avoid them.
ROAR
This is what I get for remembering instead of reading…
40-E1 (d) E60MA and E60CP model engines are prohibited from operating north of the south portal of the Empire Tunnel. EXCEPTION: NJT Model E60CP engine 958.
47-E1. TRACKS EQUIPPED FOR DC ELECTRICAL OPERATION
No. 2 track between A and a point 235 feet north of MP1.
No. 1 track between beginning of track at Empire and a point 235 feet north of MP1.
(Empire is listed as being at MP1.0. It’s where the wye is.)
My understanding is that the P32AC-DM’s shoes are similar in profile to the shoes on FL9s which could be, and were, used interchangeably on GCT and Penn third rail, and are also completely retractable.
AFIK, the shoes on the FL9s were NOT interchangeable between NYP and GCT. Some were later fitted with LIRR shoes, and then could not return to GCT until they were changed out again.
MNCR is working on a shoe that will work on both, they are on the latest M-8 cars.
ROAR
You sure made a wrong mistake. I remember coming from Washington To Providence in the days of the New Haven and having to change stations. I wore exactly the same shoes in NYP that I wore in GCT. I thought you really knew about these things, Lion, but I am beginning to wonder.
I do remember April 1968 riding from Springfiled, MA to NYP behind FL9’s…but I think I heard the diesel running in NYP…back then the NH was so poor they did whatever they had to to make it through the day.
Whatever you might have heard in NYP, it was not a diesel. At New Haven New York bound trains would change engines from diesel to electric. It took about 20 minutes. There was time to go into the station an make a phone call.
No, it was the same FL9’s we had going out of Springfield. I walked to the head end at NYP to watch them be exchanged for the GG1 To Philly.