while in Deshler yesterday Matt and I whitnessed a banner test done by CSX.The q159 was westbound had to stop and then proceed by the signal near the tower and continue at restricted speed.The “obstruction” was near county road 3 west of Deshler.So when they had to stop the entire train had Deshler cut in half.Why did they choose this spot?I have seen them do tests before where they do not block towns off at all.
stay safe
joe
Not only are they doing a banner test on the crew, in this case I think they are e testing the dispatcher as well. When you talk a train by a signal, there are certain blocks that must be put up on your board. With the diamond at Deshler, the IP dispatcher would have much more track to block off and protect. I think that someone in Indy was watching the dispatcher to make sure that he/she did what was supposed to be done.
Rule compliance testing is not done for convience but of necessity and is an FRA requirement.
The rules of the railroads have been written in blood since the first rule was written. Compliance is a life or death issue. The best testing is done in locations and circumstances when it would be least expected.
I understand Banner Tests being for compliance, but can someone give me just a little more information? I know about the Book of Rules testing that at least they used to give, assume they still do - but Banner is something I don’t completely understand.
Mook
For example NORAC:
Movements made at Restricted Speed must apply the following three requirements as the method of operation:
a. Other trains or railroad equipment occupying or fouling the track,
b. Obstructions,
c. Switches not properly lined for movement,
d. Derails set in the derailing position,
e. Any signal requiring a stop.
AND
AND
Note the obstruction part of rule ??? a Supervisor will put up banner across the track which will simulate the rear end of a train or other obstruction, if the engineer hits the banner he/she violated the rule and get either a letter of warning in file or is out of service.
Is there a good place to do such a test, answer is no , but in practice the best place to do such a test is where a crew will never expect supervision to do such a test.
This is certainly a lot more civil and informative than the “discussion” I was reading this morning on that other Forum!
From what I have been told, the opt test system we all work under now was mandated by the FRA in 1994. I have no problem w/this but there are a few company brass that don’t always know or follow the rules themselves or let it go to their heads. We had a retired rd frmn who would go out and opt test on his vac! Get a life. When these dudes are out watching what’s going on, or if they are simply riding along w/a crew, they are required to wear a orange vest & hard hat. Recently I had a rd frmn on my job ride w/us as he had to give the engr a yearly check ride. No safety gear other than boots and glasses. On top that, he makes a personal cell call to his wife w/the train moving.A no no. Another time I was observed at an industry for nearly an hr, the trnmstr & rd frmn pop out from behind the scenes , tell us we did a good job and keep it up. This was at night, but they were not wearing the required safety gear. Couple days later I learned that they were mad because they followed us for several hrs but did not catch any rule violation. And we didn;t even know anyone was out there.
Is Deshler as much fun as Fostoria? Or fun in different ways? - al
I’d say it’s fun in different ways, Al. All of the activity is concentrated in one spot, so that’s where you’ll find everyone. There are a bunch of “regulars” who are very inclusive and knowledgeable (I’d count Joe and Matt in that group), and have provided a gathering point without much (if any) civic help. Understandably, it’s not as busy as Fostoria, with only CSX providing the action (Joe, what about shortline/regional trackage rights–do they exist?), but I think you go there for different reasons.
carl
cp used to have trackage rights on csx but now they run on the wabash line in montpelier and use the connection in butler indiana.However we do have some visitors that come by like a K 223 that has CP or other power that goes south at Deshler.Also the 508,509 use the nw wye and the 500 and 501 use the sw wye.(just to name a couple).I do go to fostoria sometimes but I can leave my vehicle unlocked in Deshler.The scanner in deshler also helps to identify trains coming as well.
stay safe
joe
A banner test is required on each qualified Engineer on a district in which he/she is qualified on at least once a year.
An approach (or be prepared to stop at the next signal) test is required once a month on each Engineer on a district.
A banner according to the FRA,must be visible within three (3) car lengths of the Engineers vantage point.This was well argued over here on the Pocahontas Division (NS) by the FRA several years back.
Now as far as the location.It is up to the offical doing the banner check in conjuction with the cheif dispatcher.But if it is in violation of local or state laws,that’s a matter of law.
In the three states that I run in a train is allowed to block a public crossing for the total time of 15 minutes stopped.If your moving there’s really no amount of time.
But to be in complete rule compliance,the crew must stop their train totally.Sound off that you have stopped.Announce on the radio the reason stopped and location.Than notify the dispatcher the reason stopped.The banner is removed to un-shunt the track and your notified by the official it’s ok to move,and comfirm with your dispatcher.
All this usually takes at least 15 minutes.
So in my opinion.The CSX was wrong in the location they picked.[2c]
Were there better spots? Sure.
Was this spot “wrong”? Nope. Rules is rules, whether there are crossings or not.
Procedures on moving your train after a banner test is finished would vary by the rr but the testers want to be as stealth as possible on what they are doing. I was banner tested once on the mainline. After stopping and the testers climbed on board and had a saftey briefing, they got off we resumed our trip. Now the rules do state that if you are stopped or delayed, you are to let the DS know. This was done and we told them it was acct of a banner test at mp so-so. Of course the two trains behind us heard all this and that sort of screwed up the testers next surprise test of those trains. I’m sure they didn’t like us broadcasting but its in the rules and we were just giving our co workers behind us a heads up.
The longest banner test I had was 3 minutes, the roadforeman removed it after I stopped the train no big deal.
Rodney
I agree ,procedures once the banner has been removed may vary from railroad to railroad.But it is a rule in the NS rule book that we notify the dispatcher,or other trains around of obstructions on the rail.Banner or not it is an obstrubtion and it’s their (railroad) rules.
I think what Joe was getting at, while the banner test was taking place the town was severed. What if there had been an emergency, say a heart attack on one side of the train and the paramedics were on the other side? Even 3 minutes of delay can mean the difference between life and death. IF something like this had happened, the tone of this discussion would be radically different.
I fully understand what you are saying. Even seconds could make the difference. However, it is a moot point. What if the train had gone into emergency from a break in two instead?
I once was trying to pull a hill where at the crest was a road crossing. Due to rain and grease and the type of units, they would get very little traction. I was down to about 2mph and two fire trucks on their way to whatever, pulled up to the crossing just as my lead unit passed over the crossing. Now what do I do? I tried to clear the crossing as quickly as possible, but the units couldn’t get any traction. I was in a “Catch 22” situation. Even after topping the hill and getting more and more tonnage over the top, the train just wouldn’t accellerate due to loss of traction. It took forever to clear that crossing. I did all that I could do and it wasn’t fast enough for me and I’m sure it was excruciating for the rescue workers envolved.
A couple of tests of trains I was on come to mind. I was still a conductor both times.
The first we were on a local going thru West Des Moines. This was an area that had a lot of new housing being built. At the next crossing, about a half mile or so we saw an orange-reddish object. We weren’t sure what it was, it kind of looked like a traffic cone laid over. About a quarter mile from it was a temporary private crossing for the building contractors. My engineer blew the horn a couple of times for it even though there wasn’t any traffic there. After that the Des Moines MTO (trainmaster to most everyone else) came on the radio and said we had passed his efficiency test and he would pull down his flag and for us to keep going.
The next time was on the double main. This was ATC cab signal, no way side signal territory at the time. At MP 236 was a hold point and a block boundry. We went past that point and are cab signal went to restricting. Continuing on at restricted speed, we passed a couple more boundries and the cab signal never cleared up. Out about MP 228 we called the dispatcher and said we thought our cab signals had failed and asked for permission to cut them out and run on an absolute block. The dispatcher said to continue on under train control.
Just after the dispatcher got off the radio, we heard the assisstant MTO tell a train over the radio, “high ball.” We then knew why we were under train control. We come into Grand Jct at MP 225 and there he is. His flag was a red metal sign, the kind M O W use for Form B track protection, between the rails. We stop, get debriefed. As we start to pull, the dispatcher comes on and tells him, “Per MTO ----, get your red board down and pull up your track shunts. I have 7 trains getting close to you and most are getting short on time.” The senior MTO didn’t ge
Instead of crossings an overpass could be planned but unfortunatly the same people bitching would probably turn that down.
Don’t blame the railroad for the town being dirt cheap.