In my mind its only a matter of time before terrorists strike the railroads and I’m thinking the signaling system could be enhanched to detect this sort of thing. The system would set the signals for a given area to red, and also send back notification to CTC who would then call the officials. Specifically maybe the parallel tracks be turned into some sort of antenna system and should an evil person place an explosive device near or on the rails this system would detect it?
There is an assumption that something will be done prior to an attack. In this nation’s history we have been caught with our pants down again and again. This situation will not change. But they will harrass railfans that might spot a terrorist, and make life (and death) easier for the terrorists. There are reasons the terrorists are winning the war. These are the reasons I cannot discuss within this forum!
Assuming the terrorists would sabotage the track by blowing a gap in it, the signals already will go red as soon as the electrical continuity is broken. (For signaling purposes, think of the rails as being a circut that keeps a relay showing clear. Break the circut or cause a short by puting a wheel and axle assembly across it and the relay drops turning the signal at either end red)
Yes I know the signaling system would detect the broken rails, but I’m curious as to whether it could be technically possible and $$$ feasible to have a system where the actual rails could detect an explosive device near by. I suspect terrorist would blow the track just as a train is about to go over it, not hours before.
Sure. I can devise such a system, given an unlimited amount of (Taxpayers) money and time.[;)]
But since they are having trouble perfecting a small system which can be used in a much more closed environment (airport screeners) I personally wouldnt put any money in a company repeating “line one” above…
The short answer to the title is no.
It’s easy enough to derail a high speed train without explosives, and it doesn’t take a Mensa quality mind to come up with a way. Use cables to bridge gaps in rails, and your circuit is still complete. It has been done already- once on AMTRAK east of Phoenix, AZ in the 90’s- and 30 years prior to that on a Santa Fe passenger train. It will probably happen again, and the people who cause the incidents will never be caught. No one has been caught in either incident I’ve mentioned to date.
This past weekend German authorities found two bombs on trains. They even have surveillance footage of the people they suspect planting the bombs. Fortunately, the bombs didn’t detonate, but I doubt anyone will be caught any time soon.
Color me cynical, but I’ll drive myself rather than fly or take a train. And given the current oil prices, I’ll stay at home.
Erik
Well given that rail is safer than car or plane I’m surprised at your response, Erik. Even if a train does detail, there’s less risk of suffering a fatal injury than in a car or plane crash.
One of the big problems that knowbody is mentioning. How are you going to stop someone from blowing up the track as a train is going over a bomb? There is no way any signal system will detect that until after the explosion. Seems to me thats pretty much how they are doing roadside bombs over there in Iraq.
Short of turning this country into a full-fledged police state, protecting every mile of track is impossible. The current security system at airports seems to have been set up and modified in reaction to events rather than attempting to anticipate them. The existing regime in Washington seems more interested in justifying its constitutional violations than providing something resembling security.
Terrorists don’t want to attack every mile of every track that exists. They want to cause mayhem to our economy and psyche. Therefore they will attack where the people are - mostly in and around major cities. If you wanted to blow up a plane would you pick on a commuter plane with ten people or a 747? Maximum impact is the name of the game. The Israelis have the right attitude. When one of those dumb palastinians sends his kid on a one way trip to blow up a restaurant they go out of their way to support it the next day. In essence saying, “so what”.
There is always some kind of a threat out there. Now, you can live your life or become paranoid and try to lock yourself in a steel room.
You could be dead tomorow on the streets, a car could hit you, some could shoot you, a terrorist or a patriot, or you could simply get ill from all the stress you put yourself through
Wellcome to LIFE…
Putting guns and dogs everywhere is no way to live life. Terrorits always work AROUND security, so if you do one thing they will just think of another.
Total security is an illusion, nobody is 100% safe.
It will stop in time, just as any social disturbance of the past did. This war will end like any other.
Just go outside and take some train pictures, and enjoy the sun
hell, you could be dead tomorow, so breathe it while you can.
I agree with WildRails. The government, or companies can put as may restrictions as they want on the general public, with respect to terrorist actvity but, that isn’t going to stop “terrorist” from blowing something up ect… If someone wants to do something weather it’s illeagal or not they are going to go ahead and do it. Remeber the old saying… “You can do anything you put your mind to”.
So in respect to terrorist activity, yes I think some of the new laws and actions being taken are good for our safety but, we shouldn’t live each and everyday of our lives in fear. If we did ther would be a massive panic, and most likely we will destroy one another because of fear.
Actually the one in the 30s was the Overland CNW,UP,SP on the SP at Harney, Nevada. The other was on the SP west of Pheonix on the lightly used line to Wellington. Both incidents had a lot in common. The sabatours removed the bolts from the rail joiner and pulled up spikes for several yards. Then they pulled the rail out of guage. They then used wire to re-establish continuity for the signals. Both times the tampered track was at a bridge over a water crossing. Despite the comitment of SPs top cop the Harney case remains open to this day. I believe the same can be said for the Sunset wreck.
Railroads, and for that matter the Interstate System, are much too wide spread and operate through too much open area to ever by ‘Perfectly Safe’ from terrorism.
Unlike autos with death and injury tolls in the tens of thousands, guns and other personal weapons, hurricanes, tsusamis, lightening strikes and the occasional size of Manhatten meteor strike, if we ignored terrorists, they might actually go away. Otherwise we will just have to sweat it out until the Automatic Terrorist Detection Device is deployed.
yea unlike regular crime, where some restrictions are going to stop x percent of avarage Joe the bandits from doing something, terrorism is done by people who think things through.
I mean the very fact that they managed to hit pentagon and center of NY with all the security tells you that these people who know what they are doing.
I mean, morally, they are obviously ignorant of what they are doing, but technically they are well informed.
I think security forces would have a LOT more chance of stoping things like these if they weren’t so damn obvious about it.
If you are going to spy on everyone, then at least make them feel free while you are doing it.
Going around arresting inocent citizens only gives to terrorists an even cleaner picture of where the wholes in the fence are.
How are you going to catch someone by suprize if you keep barking all around.
They’ll just follow the bark and find a safe stop to plant a bomb
Revealing a major terrorist spying operation in a nationally syndicated newspaper probably isn’t a good way to spy on them either. I have yet to hear from the NY Times how this helped Americans in anyway.
Such a system does exist. It’s called “Railfans”. Not only that but its free. Granted it doesn’t use rails…
Never thought of that.
Responsible railfans can actually serve as free track inspection.
You know, I often see kids put all kinds of crap on the rails, just for the fun of seeing it smashed.
Well I have to admit I did put toy cars when I was a kid, but like them I was foolish.
Sometimes they put ballast rocks, which can injure someone as bullets when they explode under wheel pressure, then even metal objects.
One time I found one of those metal-bar head sides of a hospital bed. Right there on tracks.
That could even damage the locomotive, bend up under wheel pressure, breach something, don’t know, but it ain’t good, that’s for sure.
I always remove that kind of stuff. Railfans can be a benefit if RR’s can establish a healthy communication with them
I think your fears are misplaced. Al Qaeda is interested in killing thousands of people at a time, not destroying hardware, and doing it spectacularly in a place symbolically significant like New York City, London, Madrid, or Washington DC, and not in Des Moines, Phoenix, or some remote river crossing in Wyoming. Blowing up a track has just too high a probability of failure. At worst they could kill a few hundred people. That’s why to be sure they put bombs in packed commuter cars in London and Madrid. An Amtrak train? A high likelihood of an embarrassing failure. I’ve been in Metroliner cars with as few as 5 passengers, in mid-day.
Ever hear of a guy named Frederick the Great? He was the King of Prussia famous for saying “He who tries to defend everything defends nothing.” Railroads come under the category of everything else. It’s more likely the NYC subway cars, not tracks, would get hit and that’s why you would see, sensibly, higher security on board and at the stations.