When was through-service from Chicago to Florida inaugurated?
Are there any other Chicago-Florida trains worth mentioning beside the South Wind or the Seminole? How many hours did trains need for this runs?
When Amtrak took over in 1971, did it also run Chicago-Florida trains or was this service discontinued?
The finest of all Chicago - Miami streamliners was the IC City of Miami. Both the IC City of Miami and PRR South Wind both operated NP Dome sleepers in the winter months for seceral years but the IC repainted those they operated each fall into IC colors and repainted them for NP service each spring when they were returned to the NP. The South Wind operated their leased NP dome sleepers in NP colors. Originally their were three coach streamlined trains providing daily service between Chicago and Miami the FEC owned Dixie Flagler , PRR owned South Wind and IC City of Miami. By the early 1950’s t6he PRR and IC were operating the South Wind and City of Miami every other day and the Dixie Flagler operated as one consist. All three trains operated via different routes and they all operated to the same end points in the same time. Heavyweight Pullmans first appeared as WW II came to an end and streamlined sleepers operated in all three trains during the 1950’s. By most travellers the IC was the finest of the three.
After Amtrak took over they operated a train named the Floridian that followed the former South Wind route closest but it steadily lost passengers as the timetable was extended until the point where a fast horse almost could have beaten the train between Chicago and Florida.
All three trains orginally operated over the FEC Jacksonville-Miami, and over the ACL Jacksonville-Tampa, and all three trains, each operating every third day, served both coasts. The City of Miami operated over the Illinois Central via Birmingham, and the ACL (from Waycross?) to reach Jacksonville, the Dixie Flagler operated over the Chicago and Eastern Illinois, the Central of Georgia, and the ACL, via Atlanta, while the Florida Special operated via the Pennsy, the Louisville and Nashville, and the ACL. Sometime after WWII the C&EI went freight only and the other two trains became everyotherday trains to make up the difference.
For a while, the IC and ACL continued the old heavyweight through Chicago - Jacksonville train, possibly called the Seminol, if I remember correctly. This was the traditional premier Chicago - Florida heavywieght train in the steam era, had Miami and Tampa connections in Jacksonville and at one time through sleepers. I am unsure when it was inaugurated, but probably as early as the post WW One era.
When the FEC went on strike in the early 60’s, the two remaining lightweight trains’ Miami sections were rerouted via Orlando and Aurbundale on the ACL, then through a connection at Arbundale to the SAL to the SAL Miami Station, the same route used by the ACL New York and Washington trains that formerly were interchanged with the FEC in Jacksonville, and the route currently used by Amtrak. And afterward, the Tampa section was dropped as separate train south of Jacksonville with through cars being handled on the same trains as cars from the New York trains. This was the condition operated after the SAL-ACL merger into SCL. But I believe the Miami sections stayed a separate train up to Amtrak. The comments about equpment check with my memories. I can say that toward the startup of Amtrak, the Florida Special was in pretty bad shape, with lots of slow orders on the PRR line north of Louisville, possibly the worst dining car service ever had in a PRR opera
And how long (how many hours) did these trains need for the run?
Have all these trains been painted in one color scheme for the whole train, or did the cars keep the colors of their railroad?
I saw several pictures of the South Wind departing in Chicago with ACL E-Units. As far as i know the ACL net never reached Chicago…
And why did NP transfer it´s dome sleepers in the winter to these trains? Was the North Coast Limited route so “unscenic” in the winter?
FEC – ACL- AB&C - NC&StL – L&N – C&EI
DIXIE FLAGLER
(December 17, 1940)
1,434 miles
By Al
The DIXIE FLAGLER was the name assigned to the former HENRY M. FLAGLER consist beginning December 17, 1940 after the FEC had found the HENRY M. FLAGLER operating a daily round trip between Jacksonville and Miami to be less than profitable. The HENRY M. FLAGLER consist was withdrawn from this route and after a thorough shopping was renamed the DIXIE FLAGLER and assigned to every third day service between Chicago and Miami. There would be two additional seven-car Coach streamliners providing service between Chicago and Miami as well but utilizing different routes. The end points with the CITY OF MIAMI, SOUTH WIND and DIXIE FLAGLER would provide daily service in each direction. The only part of the three streamlined train routes common to all three was the FEC part between Jacksonville and Miami. The DIXIE FLAGLER was powered by a diesel only between Miami and Jacksonville over the FEC tracks. Each of the other operating roads whose tracks the DIXIE FLAGLER operated over provided their own streamlined Pacific Locomotive and Tender. The DIXIE FLAGLER operated over the Chicago and Eastern Illinois Railroad between Chicago and Evansville, Indiana. From Evansville to Nashville, Tennessee the DIXIE FLAGLER operated over the Louisville & Nashville Railroad. The Nashville Chattanooga and St. Louis Railroad operated the DIXIE FLAGLER between Nashville and Atlanta, Georgia. Between Atlanta and Waycross, Georgia the Atlanta Birmingham and Coast Railway a subsidiary of the ACL operated the DIXIE FLAGLER. The Atlantic Coast Line operated the DIXIE FLAGLER between Waycross and Jacksonville. Finally the DIXIE FLAGLER gained home rails of the FEC at that point for the trip to Miami. This part of the trip was the only part of the DIXIE FLAGLERS trip behind diesel power until after WW II. The DIXIE FLAGLER required 29-1/2 hours for the Chicago – Miami trip in either direction the DIXIE FLAGLER route was 1,43
I stand corrected on the routes. I am also unsure whether the Dixie Flagler ever had sleepers or a Tampa through-car connection before it was discontinued. I was only familiar with the South Wind and the City of Miami, which I rode several times in the post WWII era, and both trains at that time had Tampa through cars and sleepers, down to only one Miami sleeper in the Penn Central days, the last time I rode it. By the time I rode the two trains, diesel power was used all the way, obviously. The South Wind did for a time run without engine change from Chhicago to Jacksonville and PRR, L&N, and ACL power was used on a pool basis. I believe by the time I rode the train the Nashville Chatanooga and St, Louis had already been merged into the Louisville and Nashville. Anyway, that it why you saw the ACL units running into Chicago, and similarly, PRR units ran into Jacksonville. After the FEC strike, FEC units were only borrowed occasionally at beginning, but then not used at all. And an engine change at Jacksonville was usual, and sometimes the train reversed direction because the FEC tracks were the only tracks leaving the south end of the Jacksonville station, and all north to Miami trains either reversed direction or made a “Y” backup move in or out of the station (usually into the station). Again, the Illinois Central really did a fine job with its City of Miami right up to the end, and occasionally the train would run 20 cars long. I think for a period there were also through cars, Miami - St. Louis on this train.
DeLuxe asked when through Chicago to Florida service was inaugurated. Through service predates WWI and, I believe, 1900. I think the first of the Dixie Route trains was inaugurated in the 1890s.
Trains I know of (descriptions of routes, e.g., “the old Dixie Flagler route” are approximations; a lot of this information is from the PRRTHS chronology):
South Wind, Jacksonian, Florida Arrow, South Atlantic Limited on the old South Wind route.
Flamingo, Chicago and Florida Special, and Southland on the L&N Cincinnati to Altanta line
Royal Palm, Royal Palm Deluxe, New Royal Palm, Ponce de Leon, Florida Special and Florida Sunbeam on the Southern Cincinnati to Jacksonville line
Floridan, City of Miami, Seminole, Sunchaser on the old City of Miami route
Dixieland, Dixiana, Dixie Flagler, Dixie Flyer, Dixie Mail, Dixie Limited, Chicago and Florida Limited, and (I think) Dixie Express on the old Dixie Flagler route.
Also a Florida Limited (later Chicago and Florida Limited; perhaps Chicago Florida Limited) operating via the Big Four north of Cincinnati
The City of Miami, the South Wind, and the Dixie Flagler originally operated on 29:30 schedules. Previously, it appears that the fastest service had been the Dixieland on a schedule of about 33-1/2 hours. These three trains were all coach until April 1949 when they got coaches to compensate for the discontinuance of the Sunchaser, Dixieland, and Florida Arrow.
The Dixie Flagler was eventually renamed the Dixieland and discontinued in November 1957, as was the Southland to the west coast of Florida (it was combined with the Dixie Flyer in Atlanta and became a Chicago to Jacksonville train with one through sleeper to the west coast of Florida). To compensate, the South Wind got Chicago to St. Petersburg and Chicago to Sarasota coaches and sleepers. I assume this is also when the City of Miami was assigned west coast cars.
Some of these trains r
Passenger Fan’s got the routes and history of the three trains correct. Just a couple of adders:
The City of Miami did indeed carry through coaches from St. Louis. These were added to the main train from Chicago at Carbondale. I remember sitting in the CM observation car at Carbondale where an 0-6-0 would couple onto it and several rear coaches and shunt us onto a siding. The switcher would then pick up the St. Louis cars and add them to the middle of the train. The 0-6-0 would recouple to the rear of the observation car and recouple us behind the St. Louis cars. Car Knockers would come down the entire length of the train checking for cracked wheels, etc. After an air brake test we’d be on our way the whole operation having taken about 15 minutes as I recall.
Originally the three Chi-Fla streamliners were all coach and ran only to Miami. West coast passengers, of which I was one, had to change trains at Jacksonville and take the connecting ACL Weat Coast Champion from New York to Tampa, St. Petersburg and Sarasota. In the late 1940’s or early 50’s through Chicago to Miami, Tampa , St. Petersburg and Sarasota sleepers and through coaches to the three west coast points were added. These were carried in the ACL’s West Coast Champion and eliminated the change of trains at Jacksonville.
I rode all three trains a number of times from Bradenton on the Sarasota branch to and from Chicago. The Sarasota train would be made up at Tampa and consist of both a Chicago to Sarasota and a New York to Sarasota sleeper and coach and a heavy weight combine baggage RPO, express car (the Jim Crow car) , Leaving Bradenton going north the train crossed the Manatee River on a long wooden trestle with a swing bridge and bridge tender’s house in the middle. It would stop and the bridge tender would pass up fresh caught grouper or other fish wrapped in newspaper to the Pullman porters. Those fish would appear on dinner tables in Harlem and on Chicago’s south side two nights hence.
Mark
Forest mentioned the Sunchaser, Dixie Land and Florida Arrow. These were non-streamlined heavy weight trains which operated only during the Winter season. Each of these ran only every third day so, like the three Chi-Fla stramliners, they provided daily northbound and southbound departures. If I remember correctly they were all or at least mostly all Pullman trains.
Unlike the streamliners, which departed in the morning and were two days and one night enroute, these three heavy weights departed at night and were two nights and one day enroute. I think their overall running times were the same or nearly the same as the streamliners.
Mark
When the Seminol, by that time equipped with modernized heavyweights and lightweight cars in streamlined appearance overall, and diesel hauled, was cut from the Florida service (to Jacksonville with through cars), in hung on for a while as a Chicago - Birmingham IC train. With a sleeper for a while, too!
I do remember that in about 1968 or so the Seminole was cut back from a Chicago-Jacksonville to Chicago-Carbondale run and renamed the Shawnee.
The power pool for the South Wind was strictly PRR and ACL/SCL with solid power consists for either road. L&N contributed only on an emergency basis. Power ran through between Chicago and at least Jacksonville. My grandmother lived across the street from the PRR Bernice cutoff and I can recall the oddity of ACL power on the northbound South Wind.
A good source for a review of Chicago-Florida service is MIDWEST FLORIDA SUNLINERS, by Lyle Key, Jr. Its long out of print but its worth the search.
I remember riding St. Louis to Ft. Lauderdale (and presumeably back) in 1948 and 1949 by Pullman through Carbondale, Ill. and Jacksonville and down the FEC. On one of those trips, I had to change trains in Jacksonville to a coach, where I sat next to a nurse who informed me that the train we were on last night had hit an automobile carrier truck in Georgia and been delayed two hours. I slept through that wreck.
I also remember riding St. Louis to Naples and back in 1954 and 1955, via Jacksonville and Tampa. South of Ft. Myers, the train became one F3A and one coach, with maybe one head end car. I even got to ride in the cab once, nearly hitting a truck that stalled on a crossing near Bonita Springs. They got the truck off the tracks at the last minute. Scary! I believe that was on the ACL.
I don’t remember when Amtrak discontinued Chicago–Miami/ Tampa service, but I never understood why. Amtrak did have a Chicago area to Sanford Auto Train for a while, or maybe that was when Auto Train was a seperate company.
Amtrak’s Floridian was a notoriously bad time keeper and the service was not much better than it was in Penn Central days, so ridership fell off badly. Too bad they didn’t use the City of Miami route, but that would not have served Atlanta.
The Floridian approximately used the former South Wind route and did not serve Atlanta either. However, it did serve Louisville and Nashville, which the City of Miami route missed.
Auto Train attempted a Louisville-Sanford service. It started out running as a separate train but was later combined with but kept separate from the Floridian. In any case, it was not particularly successful and was discontinued some time before Auto Train’s collapse.
I knwo a lot has been written. Will try to not be too redundant.
They were all coach trains at first, every third day. When the wintertime pullman trains (Florida Arrow, Dixieland, etc) were discontinued about 1949 the streamliners picked up heavyweight pullmans from them. The South WInd and the City got consistently streamlined sleeprs more quickly than did the Dixie Flagler.
Not too well known is that at times some of these trains operated every other day and 2 days out of 3. Especially the SW and the City. I think Flagler did that only one winter. It’s ridership was not as strong. .
In 1954 the Flagler was re-equipped with new coaches and sleepers and renamed, the Dixieland.
It was discontinued Nov. 1957.Also the Southland 's west coast cars were dropped then.
Thus both the City and the SW got through west coast equipment. The SW’s cars were straight off the Dixieland. Some of the Dixieland’s three-years old cars also went to the Georgian from Chicago to Atlanta.
Just a couple of more thoughts.
Deluxe asked why the NP domes were used in the winter on these trains. Why was so unscenic on the NP? It was about NP being less busy in the winter, their peak season going from CHI to West Coast was in the summer— the CHI-FLA peak was winter. Just switching around between the seasons as needed, something the pullman company was very good at.
The Floridian was discontinued as part of sweeping budget cuts by Amtrak in 1979.
My apologies to passenger trainfran–I see the question about NP cars had been answered.
One thing to point out (and my apolgies if somebody has already said this) is that originally the trains had identical departure and arrival times in Chicago and also everywere betweeen Waycross and Miami
This was to give passengers a "memory pattern’–that every day at the same time A traini was either leaving Miami for Chicago or leaving Chicago to Miami, etc.(even though it was from different stations, in Chicago).
This accounts for the South Wiind having the fastest mph and the Dixie Flagler the slowest. It was not a differnce in quality as such between the trains but the fact that each had a different route. The Flagler’s route was the shortest, the SW’s the longest, thus the speed difference, maintaining that same arrival and departure for each train.
Needless to say that did not last, but most of the time they continued othave similar schedules, esp. southbound.
As to places which each train served on the inermediate routes, there was no attempt to have a matching schdedule For example, the SW and CofM did not arrive and leave Birmingham at the same time. Nor did the SW and the Flagler arrive and leave Nashville at the same time. It was just Chicago itself, and everywhere from Wacyross to Miami which had the same schedule the first few years.
I remember riding the Floridian from Lafayatte, IN to Chicago in the last year of its run.It came through northbound early in the morning (4 or 5am). The Monon was still using street running through Lafayette and the “station” was the lobby of a run-down hotel on the main street. The clerk told me that the train was running an hour or so late, so I went across ther street to a newsstand to pick up a paper. All of a sudden I heard the locomotive bell clanging as it pulled in with me on the wrong side to board. I ran to the front of the train, crossed the street and began to run down the correct side as the train started to pull out. I banged on the doors of each car as it slowly rolled past. Finally the last car had the dutch doors open and the conductor heard my dilemma. He stopped the train and I boarded, breathless, but aboard!