Boardman has been told North river tunnels have 20 years or less before at least one will have to be shut down. Will try to post his full comments.
Could not find Boardman’s complete statement but may some other poster can ?
If this is correct several possibilities exist.
1. Question what is the basis for such a claim ?
2. IIs water leakage increasing ?
3. Are the walls of the tunnels getting thin ? If so at a certain point the possibility of a catastrophic failure ?
5. If one tunnel closed and Gateway tunnels not complete the other tunnel would probably have to be closed on some weekends cutting off service ?
6. What would NJT & Amtrak do for traffic? Could one solution be diverting trains to Hoboken terminal with Newark Penn - Hoboken double tracked ?
7. Maybe some trains would need to be lengthened but that would require a quick double stop at NYP?. Unfortunately longer trains would slightly reduce trains per hour thru tunnel even with extended fleeting times. .The 18 car regionals now being tested behind ACS-64s could become the norm ?
8. Most Amtrak LD trains might need to terminate at PHL ? Ongoing passengers would need to transfer to expanded Regionals ?
9. Acela trains could rob cars from one or more train sets to lengthen others to maximum allowable NYP?
10. More late night trains ? ex 2 -
What’s the surprise? What’s the doubt? What’s the discussion? These two tunnels have served for about 100 years and have taken a pounding. When will Americans learn that nothing we make lasts forever and needs to be rebuilt, replaced, and retired. Many only hope the tunnels will last more than 20 more days much less 20 more years. They’ve got to be replaced. There are no questions, there are no doubts. And there may be no time to doubt and debate.,
Well then, in the meantime they’d better run as many trains possible through those tunnels before it’s too late!
Precisely, henry!! It is a tell-tale sign of a nation in decline that lets existing infrastructure decay and is not building new for the future. All part of a self-destructive theme of wringing out profits today and giving the finger to the future.
Recall “deferred maintenance” on most railroads 40-50 years ago?
Half of the problem with the infrastructure is that the government hasn’t been doing maintance like they should have been doing. The infrastructure slowly breaks down overtime without maintance. Now it is to the point that many things need to be replaced. One of the biggest things is bridges with around 50% failing.
The other part of the problem is the government shot itself in the foot by requiring car manufacture to improve fuel economy. The way the government makes money to pay for the roads is through gas taxes, but more efficient cars means less gas used which is less gas bought which means less budget for roads. Honestly, you have to wonder if anyone thinks anymore.
There may be ways to extend the lives of the two tunnels without shutting them down more than one at a time for a number of weekends. Possibilties might inlcude prefabricated thin high-streingth rust-preventive steel liners inserted within the existing tunnels, or a sprayed high-strength concrete-type lining.
“Wringing out profits today”? Who’s doing that? Amtrak? The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey? The states? Washington?
The problem, depending on who you’re talking to, is (1) misallocation of existing government resources or (2) an insufficiency of those resources (raise taxes!).
My belief is that there is plenty of money, but politicians like to spend it buying votes rather than attending to infrastructure.
Most railroads of 40-50 years ago had no choice about that deferred maintenance. There was no money for maintenance. It was defer – and stop running trains someday – or stop running trains right now.
Dave: At present one tunnel has been shut down every weekend except super bowl. It would appear that this fact was factored into Boardman’s statement ? Our engineering types might be able to tell us how much will need to be stripped from existing tunnels to refurbish them ?. That would require an extended period of closure to trains ?
Here is another media link but no transcript.
Strange that no one has so far mentioned that the new tunnels might be 2 years closer to reality if the Governor of New Jersey (famous for his interest in bridges) had not vetoed the project. So let’s lay the blame where it belongs. Oh, and also on the Port Authority which since 2001 has shown far more interested in real estate development in Manhattan than in infrastructure for transit.
As to 40-50 years ago, I believe it was Hurricane Agnes that delivered the coup de grace to the Erie Lackawanna; they couldn’t replace all those bridges at once, especially in a declining industrial area.
If we really want to put Americans back to work and re-build our country we’re going to have to learn not to scorn ideas like the Stimulus Bill just because we don’t like the party proposing it or have an aversion to government spending.
The fate of these Hudson Tunnels will tell us a lot about the future of America.
Some one with more political savvy needs to comment on the fallout on all persons previously involved or present. Did Boardman make more enemies for one ? What will the NY business community say ? WSJ ? NY times ? NJ political ? National pols ? etc
And that is the problem. Since they must attempt to be a profitable or at least minimal loss enterprise, they not only deferred maintenance, but greatly reduced their plant (tracks, facilities) to further cut costs. Short-sighted, but necessary. Now they are straining capacity and having to add track and turn away potentially profitable business.
With a national infrastructure properly funded (I will stay away from sources of revenue here), rail lines would be well-maintained, updated, upgraded, including much wider use of electrification on heavily used lines.
Major roads (perhaps all) should rely on user fees, higher for commercial enterprises, much lower rates for individuals. The railroads should pay user fees to support the lines.
First, I want to repeat what I’ve said about Boardman in the past: he is probably the most politically savvy Amtrak President of all. He started as a political appointee to several municipal transportation agencies before moving up to NYS DOT Chair followed by heading the FRA for George W. Bush.
Second. I f you haven’t read the book CONQUERING GOTHAM by Jonnes, do so. It reveals the trials and political tribulations of building the tunnels and Pennsylvania Station in the first place.
Third. The New York and New Jersey Port of Authority, the states of NY and NJ and their political entourages from governors to the local ward healers all want to play digging in the dirt and sand in their own ways and and power grabs.
Fourth, what NJ Governor Christie did by stopping the tunnel project was good in the long run because of its shortcomings. I didn’t think so then, but in hindsight, am in agreement.
The mixing together of national politics and regional needs is the problem as power fiefdoms arm wrestle while Rome burns. NJT needs the tunnels as much as Amtrak. NYC needs the tunnels as much as NJ and Amtrak. We need the tunnels…new ones and old ones…so we’ve got to stop the national political game played by Congress of money and parochialism as well as the one upmanship game many play between NY and NJ. Amtrak through its President (Joe Boardman at present) has to take control, as owner of the property, and forge alliances and agreements amongst all parties to make it happen.
Schlimm,
That last sentance puts you at the head of the pack of economic idiots. The railroads own, maintain, and pay taxes on their infrastructure. The freight carriers, thanks to the partial deregulation of the Staggers Act of 1980, are finally able to earn a reasonable return on their investment and are pouring billions per year into capacity improvements despite having to absorb the burden of PTC. The “Grow America Act” you referred to on another thread proposes to transfer $150 billion from the general taxpayers to the highway trust fund, a huge subsidy to the truckers who are already paying far less than their fair share of highway costs which has the practical effect to shifting traffic to the roads from the railroads.
In the face of all that you say the railroads should pay user fees!!! That is as stupid as saying that a homeowner should pay rent on his own home. What do you think will happen to the rail’s user fees? I would be willing to bet they would go in large part to further subsidize the truckers.
Mac McCulloch
Maintenance of anything is not ‘star material’ for those involved. It is hard, dirty work without being able to shout to the world ‘I built something new’!
As a society we denigrate the maintenance of anything that currently exists - software, hardware, roadway, bridges, tunnels - you name it - keeping what exists working doesn’t get all the accolades and promotions.
When I was working in my company’s technology department, people that go assigned to maintaining legacy software thought they had been banished to Siberia. This mentality is pervasive throughout our society.
Nothing lasts forever!
It didn’t take long for the Chris Christie “tunnel killing” misconception to resurface. The ARC tunnels that Christie cancelled (and then stole the money to balance his budget) would not have helped Amtrak in any way. These two tunnels, if built, would have ended in a six track station deep under Macy’s, with no physical connection to Penn Station. Six tracks, reduced from the original eight for cost savings. No tail tracks or the possibility of eastward extension because immediately east at the same level is New York City Water Tunnel #1, which is a critical part of the city water system. Time to forget about the ARC tunnels. There is a track connection between Newark Penn Station and Hoboken Terminal, currently used by several North Jersey Coast Line weekday trains. The actual connection between the Northeast Corridor and Morris & Essex tracks is in Kearney, near the M&E Midtown Direct connection to the Corridor. I’s a single track connection, not sure how hard it would be to double track. There’s also some issues with Hoboken Terminal. The train platforms are low-level, which increases loading/unloading times. The M&E voltage is 25Kv, the Corridor voltage is 11Kv. Both Amtrak and NJTransit locomotives can transition between voltages while moving, but the EMU’s cannot, precluding their use on the Corridor trains into Hoboken.
Working backwards…the issue of platform height at Hoboken is minimal in my estimation: the bottom step of each car is level and less than an inch with the platforms…no high steps or gap leaps. Not high level, but just as good if not better from my use and perspective.
The connection from the Morristown Line to the Corridor to get to Newark Penn station is a problem and cannot be confused witht he MidTown Direct connection further west on the Morristown Line and in a different direction. For westbound moves to Newark Penn, trains must cross over in front of eastbound traffic causing a bottleneck of sorts as trains in both directions for the most part are slowed down. The line itself is between two divisions and through yard limits. A lot of reworking and re-philosophising has to be…and should be…done to accomplish a better operation. And, if electric trains, there is a voltage adjustment which requires a higher speed than can be offered now. BUT any and all diesel routes can be handled for Raritan Valley, North Jersey Coast, and even Trenton (in fact there used to be a westbound Trenton Direct from Hoboken during evening rush hours).
I have some familiarity with Hoboken Terminal and believe high platforms can be installed. The MJU cars can and should be modified for automatic voltage change. It is not rocket science. Yes, new flyovers are necessary but there is space for them without much change to existing track arrangements.
The arrangement and plans curtailed by Christie would have helped Amtrak by removing mos NJT trains from Amtrak platforms and tunnels, thus giving Amtrak greater capaciti.
Why not just think outside the box and replace the tunnel with a bridge here.
That’s the problem I have with Boardman’s comments as well as this whole tunnel box thingy. I would be curious how much time the current tunnels save over other alternatives…say maybe exiting Manhattan using a bridge versus a tunnel. The Hudson has been bridged several times in the past.
So take 23rd street out of service in Weehawken and convert it to a double track ROW, it goes almost right to the riverbank, on the other side you have Hudson Yards. What take maybe 4-5 tracks out of Hudson Yard and you have an elevated approach to the River that can land on the former 23rd street and proceed to where the tunnel portal is on the New Jersey side. How much would this cost vs a tunnel AND wouldn’t it eliminate the potential for flooding in the future more than another tunnel would?
Several reasons come to mind concerning a bridge for trains to and from NJ. One the the lack of land needed for the approaches, etc.in both NJ and NYC. Second, simply, it all would have to go underground once in the city. Therefore probably costs would be easier to control with tunnels, grades up and down for a bridge would probably be a problem. SO yea, the tunnel idea would probably work best in so many ways.
As to automatic or even cab controlled voltage change on MU’s. SEPTA wisely chose all of them back when. Plus, today the NJT MU’s are nearing replacement age so that is why no one will go along with the change. Beyond that, we are not sure NJT is over the push-pull mentality yet. It would do well for them to do so.
I really don’t think high platforms would be that cost effective for Hoboken because of the present perfect platform to bottom step match. Cost and use of stairs at the concourse end of the platforms would negate the advantage and ramps might be too steep or sharp. Overall, it works well and has for over a century, so why change or fix what ain’t broke ?