Just want to make sure I’m 100% clear on this, because none of the sources I’ve looked at have given me a clear answer.
There are multiple kinds of passenger trains and cars for said trains. I’ve heard the term Pullman train and All-Coach train many times, and I’m slightly confused. With Pullman, I got the impression that these trains were overnight services with a good chunk of the consist being sleeper cars. Does that mean an All-Coach train consists of mostly coach cars, or is it just a train with coach accomodations and nothing else? If the latter is the case, how did railroads run them overnight? If it’s the former, does that mean that Amtrak’s corridor trains like the Northeast Regional, the Hiawatha, and Cascade count as modern all-coach trains?
Also, the El Capitan and the Trail Blazer (PRR) were described as the first all-coach trains which could match Pullman trains in terms of accomodations. What were the normal accomodations and services for each type of train?
From what I’ve read, in the old days an all coach train meant no sleeping accomodations, although they did have diner cars and some other amenities.
Their main attraction was cheaper fares, although how much cheaper I don’t know. Presumably there must have been a substantial difference to make them attractive to potential riders.
I’d also assume those coach seats were comfy enough to snooze in.
In the South, cach fares were about 2 1/2 cents per mile; first class fares were about half again as high. The Eastern and Pocohontas region fares were higher; I think that Western fares were lower.
Also, there was a space charge for sleepers, which presumably went to Pullman (except on the roada that operated the sleepers themselves). The charge varied from that for an upper to those for a lower, a bedroom, a compartment and a drawing room (and on the NYC, PRR, and SOU-WPRte-L&N a master room).
If the coaches had reclining seats, they were much more comfortable than those with the walkover seats (I have slept in both styles)–and when the western roads began buying coaches with legrests, coach passengers were more comfortable yet.
Another anenity was a folding center arm rest, which I found in Southern and Santa Fe coaches only; the worst thing I ever found in a reclining seat coach was a fixed center armrest, which made it impossible to lie down on the seat (some ACL, some L&N & Amfleet I).
In the South, coach fares were about 2 1/2 cents per mile; first class fares were about half again as high. The Eastern and Pocohontas region fares were higher; I think that Western fares were lower.
Also, there was a space charge for sleepers, which presumably went to Pullman (except on the roada that operated the sleepers themselves). The charge varied from that for an upper to those for a lower, a bedroom, a compartment and a drawing room (and on the NYC, PRR, and SOU-WPRte-L&N a master room).
If the coaches had reclining seats, they were much more comfortable than those with the walkover seats (I have slept in both styles)–and when the western roads began buying coaches with legrests, coach passengers were more comfortable yet.
Another anenity was a folding center arm rest, which I found in Southern and Santa Fe coaches only; the worst thing I ever found in a reclining seat coach was a fixed center armrest, which made it impossible to lie down on the seat (some ACL, some L&N & Amfleet I).
RailfanGXY,
Not all Pullman cars were sleepers. There were cars called “Parlors” that offered 1st class service and were owned by Pullman yet leased to the railroads (until postwar when the roles were reversed). Parlor cars generally featured 1-1 seating with overstuffed rotating (and sometimes reclining) chairs. Each Pullman parlor car had a Pullman car attendant who would take care of the passengers. He’d serve them drinks and snacks at their seat, bring them the newspapers, etc.
Parlor trains were “day trains” as they did not run overnight. On the New Haven RR, where they ran hourly passenger trains between Boston and New York City all day long, most trains were day trains. It is only ~230 miles after all.
All these day trains had diners or grill cars (or both), and just after WWII they all had coaches, too. But then even the overnight “Owl” sleeping car train had a couple coaches attached.
An all-Pullman or all-sleeper overnight train meant that all accommodations were First Class, with 1st Class fares applying, and not coaches. But diners and possbily a lounge and observation car if appropopriate. An all-Pullman daytine train would not have ooaches, only parlor cars, and diner and possbily lounge and an observation car, usually the same car.
An all-coach train meant no cars requiring first-class fares, and no sleepers or parlor cars. A daytime all-coach train with purpose-built equipment would usually have denser seaing, higher capacity, and fairly compact washrooms, but an overnight coach train, if a preimeum train like the original Florida streamliners, the Southerner, Trailblazer, Pacemaker, El Capitan, would have seats that reclined further, folding center arm-rests, and washrooms that usually seperated the john from the sink area and had ofen a bench seat in addition. This would also be true of the few all-coach trains that had exceptionally long runs; only the IC’s Ciy of New Orelans would come to mind, but it was not realy all-coach because it carried parlor cars, at times just for part of he run. Some all-coach trains had specific cars for short-trip passengers and more comfortable cars for long-distance riders.
Much of this carries into Amtrak, Amfleet I was designed more for daytime short-distance trips, and both Amfleet !! Superliner coaches for overnight and other long-destaince caoch trips. And Amtrak’s “Busiess Class” can be compared in some ways to the old parlor cars. Not an eact match, but much the same idea.
Dave, the City of New Orleans did not carry parlor cars; except for the lounge, diner, and observation cars, it was all coach (with a baggage car and perhaps an RPO)–unless an observation car needed shopping and then an IC parlor was operated on the rear as a subsitute (I made one trip from Brookhaven to Jackson in a parlor for which I did not pay extra fare).
Many SP. UP and SFe coaches built circa 1950 had seats on 52-inch centers, so they had room to recline much better than the seats on Superliner coaches.
CN (and later VIA) used have coaches with fully reclining seats and greater spacing between the rows (can’t remember if they were 2x1 or 2x2). This service was branded as “Dayniter” and was quite popular. I believe the fare was somewhere between coach and berth.
Unfortunately the Dayniter cars were all ex-CN carbon steel equipment, and the service ended when that fleet was retired circa 1990. To my knowledge none of the stainless steel coaches have ever been converted to Dayniter configuration. A shame, really.
Well, Paul, you remember that the expalnation was quite simple; the upper was lower because it was higher up, and the lower was higher because it was lower down. So, if you went higher, it was lower than it was if you stayed down.
Public timetables that showed rail fares would show the cost of a lower for each city pair, and there was a table which showed how the cost of other accommodations varied with the cost of lower berths–and how many additional rail fares were needed for the room accommodations.
To add to the story: Some all coach trains that were faster than others and had upgraded equipment and services, were Extra Fare such as the Santa Fe’ El Capitan, the SP’s Daylight.
My comment on the C. of N. O. having parlors at certain times must have been based on the experience you mentioned, with the parlor substituting for the obs-lounge. Thanks for the explanation.
The Daylights carried both coaches and parlors. The legendary Heywood-Wakefield sleepey hollow seat was about as good as it gets in coach travel. I remember getting on the Lake Shore Limited in 1990 with my then seven year old son and being delighted to find an ex-Santa Fe coach with Sleepy Hollow seats (and Santa Fe-style decorations - even after HEP conversion!), instead of the usual Amfleet II, which made the ride to Cleveland about as good as it gets in coach.
Often all coach trains were some of the rail roads best offering’s. In 1939 when the silver meoter and the south wind in 1940, we’re all coach. The trains were built new by Budd and completely deiselized. Faster than the standard trains, they carried diners snd lounges. Sleepers we’re evenually added to the consit. But the were billed as all coach with the latest and greatest offering’s.
I came across a better one (that I’ve been trying desultorily to track down ever since, and one of you will know) when riding to Philadelphia in the early '70s. (For some reason I remember the car in question as being ex-ACL but have no idea why I thought so.) This appeared to be a normal long-track distance coach, but reaching under the seat was a two-piece ‘foldout’ with what I remember as aluminum girder rails solidly supporting both sides and full upholstery at the top. (This is of course the same design premise as the Sleepy Hollow seats pictured in White’s American Passenger Car, but the construction was different.) The center section supported the knees with a slight upward hump, and the outer section supported the calves almost down to the ankles. That was easily the most comfortable railroad seat I’ve ever used, and I have never seen another since, although it has been a guide and inspiration for designing future passenger accommodations on occasion.
I had no trouble falling asleep in that seat (the only other time being in one of those retrucked P70s with high-inertia concrete decks that rode almost silently, with bronze-framed overstuffed velour seats) and I don’t think I would have had particular difficulty riding long distances in it.
I do not recall riding overnight in a coach with legrests in the South until Amtrak began operating the trains. I do have a possibly mistaken memory of legrests in coaches on the City of New Orleans.
One of the most comfortable nights I spent in a coach on the Southern was in one of the old coaches that I rode on #36 from Atlanta to Charlotte in 1953–I think I was directed to this coach because I was riding on a pass–I stretched out on the seat next to a washroom, and I think I slept all night, without waking even once. Two years earlier, my brother and I rode #136, and HE took the seat next to the washroom (he was older than I). I had two facing seats, and woke once or twice in the night.