DC Phased out?

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
21

As someone has already pointed out, many DCC users prefer to choose their own decoder. And many DCC users do not need sound in every loco or do not want sound at all.

So the current offerings from most manufacturers of DCC with sound, and DCC ready versions, fills all the market needs very well.

Those who want plop and play DCC with sound can shell out the big bucks. Others can buy DCC ready versions and equip, or not equip them to thier needs.

Bachmann now chooses to DCC with sound and locos with DCC no sound, BUT, the low prices of the DCC no sound versions are similar to others DCC ready versions, and, they provide those nice jumpers for us DC operators who don’t want the decoders.

Seems perfect to me.

Sheldon

22

A few random thoughts on the topic and the comments thus far:

DCC is a great system, however its price and complexity are not a match to my needs, just like, A BMW is a great car, but its added features/benifits do not justify its price for my needs - I drive a Ford.

It is about operational needs and wants, and, sometimes about what you don’t need or want. To assume one size fits all or that everyone has the same goals for their layout is faulty thinking.

To assume DCC is always the best choice for every layout and every person is faulty thinking.

If I had any interest in onboard sound, or thought the current sound systems sounded good enough to justify their cost, I would go to DCC in a heart beat. I have repeatedly recommended other do the same if they want sound in HO or N. I personally have no interest in onboard sound in HO.

If I was building a layout with a different theme, I would likely consider DCC - but I’m not. I considered DCC twice in fact - rejected it both times for the current layout theme. Since I have a great deal of time and money invested in the current theme, and I enjoy modeling in that theme very much, I suspect it is not likely to change - ever.

I have been in this hobby a long time (40 years), I have learned what I like and what I don’t. Those things do not change with each new product offering - be it a new locomotive or a new control system.

Paul repeatedly brings up the issue of clubs - I will concede that if you are the “club joining type” you probably want to go DCC. there is a “social” aspect to doing what your group is doing.

Many, many in this hobby have little or no interest in clubs, even many who are active on forums like this or are active in the NMRA. Rather than clubs, they prefer small informal groups of their own friends, or, prefer that their t

23

Good post from an DC point of view. One major incorrect statement though.

"DCC is great for those who have no real interest in “planning” a layout but rather prefer to just let it “grow” and evolve. DC, if it is to be easy to use and effective, must be planned.

I haven’t visited a club yet that wasn’t planned and most have converted to DCC or started out that way. planning a layout isn’t based around the electrical system unless it’s DC. With DCC you still have the same level of planning but the electrical system isn’t as much as a thorn in the butt.

If you’re happy with DC that’s great. I’ve run both and love the DCC with sound.

24

As to the original question, running two engines separately on a small to medium size layout is going to be much easier with DCC. On DC you have to have separate blocks and be sure each engine is in it’s own block and doesn’t stray into another block and start being controlled by the other throttle.

I think you could someday see time when the manufacturers only make engines with decoders, using “dual mode” decoders which use DC or DCC equally well. BTW, for the DC folks who remove the decoders…you know your engine will run just fine on DC without doing that - and be ready to use when you take the plunge to DCC, right?? [:)]

Look at music…I have CDs, LPs, audio cassettes, 8-track tapes, 45s, 78s, and open-reel tapes…and that just covers basically my lifetime, back to the 1950’s. It would have been hard to convince someone in 1980 that LP records would be antiques in 20 years.

25

First, I was not refering to clubs, but to indivdual home layouts. AND, I did not say that you could not or should not plan a layout for DCC. What I said was, that for those who don’t plan, or are not good at planning, DCC works better and is more flexible.

You are welcome to your view that such planning is “a thorn in the butt”, for some of us it is one of the fun and challenging aspects of the hobby - no different from scratch building or hand laying track or developing a prototypical operating scheme. Many find those activities to be “a thorn in the butt” too.

Sheldon

26

This is not universally true - I use Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless radio throttles and their output is a full voltage pulse with modulated signal similar to the motor output of a DCC decoder. Most dual mode decoders DO NOT run well on this type of DC throttle.

There are a number of other DC throttles on the market with similar problems/results.

Inexpensive dual mode decoders, such as the ones built into Bachmann regular line DCC On Board diesel locos, will not run at all on my Train Engineer throttles. AND, most dual most dual mode sound decoders result in Jack rabbit starts around 35 SMPH when used with many/most DC throttles including the Train Engineer.

I know all of this from first hand testing - how many DCC decoders have you tested on how many diffeent brands of power packs/throttles? I will keep removing them thank you.

I still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs.

Sheldon

27

I just picked up a re-release in vinyl of Hawkwind’s Space Ritual album. Yes. There are re-releases in vinyl happening—as well as releases[:)]

28

The problem with this is, a serious DC user will rip out the cheap Bachmann decoders - and so will a serious DCC user. It really is that bad, which probably explains how they can offer a loco with a decoder in it for the same price as a comparable loco from someone else that only has a DCC socket.

–Randy

29

Agreed, but as long as they keep suppling the jumpers, and I keep getting $30 for three Bachmann decoders when I sell them on Ebay - its like getting the loco $10 cheaper.

Sheldon

30

Yes, I know, because analog music sounds better on an analog recording!

Sheldon

31

Going all the way back to the original question, analog DC will be phased out when it is no longer possible to obtain filament (or equivalent) transformers, discrete resistors, bridge rectifiers and rotary switches. Those are the ingredients I used to build a dedicated power supply to move trains in a hidden staging complex. The filament transformer steps house power down to 12.6 VAC, the bridge rectifier converts that to DC and the resistors and rotary switch combine to form a 120 ohm potentiometer. The whole is mounted inside a freezer container my wife exiled from her kitchen.

Unlike DCC base stations, which require sophisticated electronic parts not available at your local (or web) supplier, a DC power supply can be assembled from parts available at your local Shack. It may not be pretty, and it doesn’t have coasting or a separate brake - but it can, and does, control everything from modern can motors to two elderly open-frame motors in parallel.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)

32

Now there is a blast from the past, I have not listened to that in decades. Time to go rooting around and find my copy of Captain Lockheed and the Star fighters!

33

Yep. Their back catalogue is being all remastered and is being released on vinyl and CD…Got the Right Stuff there[:D]

34

I currently run DC but I am planning on upgrading to DCC in the near future. If DC fades away it will be years down the road. My thinking behind this is DC is a lot cheaper in a train set. How many train sets are given to 8-10 yr olds at Christmas. I know I would balk at giving a 200 dollar engine to my kid. DCC equipment will have to get a lot cheaper to solve that scenario. Bachmann is making a good effort but its not there yet. For every “serious modeler” out there, I would like to know how many kids have a simple oval in their bedrooms with one engine. If this hobby has a future, it has to be affordable to kids (and their Dads)[8D].

35

Wow…3 pages of replies when the answer is just “no”.

David B

36

I made the leap to DCC and will never look back one of the best things I ever did model railroading wise. That being said I recall talk a few years back of how eventually code 100 track would be phased out for a number of speculative reasons. Well we all see how that went. I don’t ever see DC being completely phased out in to obscurity only to live on on Sheldon’s layout but you “may” see some sort of reduction in production and or loss of popularity as DCC is getting to be more affordable and will continue to do so in the future to some extent. They are never going to give the stuff away but for better or worse you can buy a DCC locomotive for under $50. Same price you would pay for a DC model.Same thing sort of happened with flying models. sure R/C is the dominant choice by far but your still able to fine line fliers in a hobby shop. Might have a few inches of dust on them but their still around.

37

While you may not be able to get all the parts for a DCC command station at Radio Shack (and frankly I’d be surprised that you could get all the parts for a DC controller at one on any given day - luckily there is usually another RS just a few miles away so if one has the switch but no transformer…), you CAN easily get them from any of the major online electronics suppliers (and the same parts for the DC supply are cheaper there as well). There are many web sites which show you how to build such a thing - while it’s more complex than a transfomer and bridge rectifier, it’s not nearly as complex as it’s made out to be. Look inside a commercial product - there really aren’t all that many components.

Heck there’s even DIY articles on building decoders. Including ones as small as anything commercially available, provided you have good eyesight and a strong magnifier. With good quality decoders under $12 it’s hard to justify building your own other than for the satisfaction of doing it yourself.

–Randy

38

I test new engines with dc,but use dcc.The answer to your question no.

39

BTW, anyone suprised that Sheldon has 7 posts in less than 6 hours on this thread? [:D]

Doughless,
I used to be anti-DCC back in the 1990’s at my club. My No. 1 reason was that DCC was sure to go belly up someday, leaving us with a dinosaur legacy system that would be impossible to get parts for. Meanwhile, DPDT toggles and transformers will always be available. What changed my mind entirely was the fact that DCC is an NMRA Standard, not just in the hands of one manufacturer. If worst came to worst and Digitrax disappeared tomorrow, our club would have to buy new throttles and a new command station from one of the several other DCC manufacturers, but everything else would remain (even the boosters). Sure, it wouldn’t be cheap but it wouldn’t bankrupt us, and labor would be minimal. Better yet, we wouldn’t have to swap a single decoder.

So am I worried about future software changes to DCC becoming incompatible with older versions? Nope. For example, Our club has had the exact same command station since 1999. It has not been upgraded at all. Back in 1999, I was using Windows98 on a Pentium 233Mhz (shudder). That’s a long time ago in software terms. Meanwhile, every Digitrax item ever made will work with our command station (except for the original CT4 throttle…and I think there was a conversion kit for that).

jamnest,
I agree. Decoder cost is usually the most expensive for most of us, since we all seem to collect engines like they are going out of style. [:)] This makes DCC prohibitively expensive for a lot of us. There are ways around this, as you mentioned. Still, the point can be made that DCC can be less expensive than a roughly equal DC system even with decoders included. It would be a minimal DCC system vs. a tricked out DC system, but it’s possible.

40

And I’ll bet you’re listening to them on a wicked hi power tube amp (that you probably built yourself). My old vinyl is in mediocre shape, having survived many trips across the country and several cats, but every click and pop brings back the memories of good times.

Lou