I ask because the Phoebe Snow, EL’s flagship train, ran from Hoboken, NJ to Buffalo… why not out of Grand Central?
There is no direct route between New Jersey and Grand Central Terminal. GCT is oriented north-south and the nearest rail crossing of the Hudson River on NYC is near Albany.
In a little more detail: both the Erie and Lackawanna lines run to northeastern New Jersey, at which point they encounter a relatively wide and high volcanic dike formation (the Palisades) immediately adjacent to a wide river which by law is kept open to large ship navigation. On the other side is Manhattan, extensively developed on a ground-level grid.
Meanwhile, Grand Central is served by a railroad that runs north-south along the opposite bank of the river, then curves further east at Spuyten Duyvil to approach Manhattan from the north. Even if EL traffic could have been directed up the Northern branch and then the valley occupied by Rt 4 (subsequently massively cut away for the highway approaches from highways I-80 and I-95) across the George Washington Bridge, and the track there built to appropriate clearance and standards for EL passenger equipment of the time, there is an enormous vertical distance (as well as an effective right angle) between the approach to Grand Central and any conceivable railroad grade from the east end of the bridge; the real-estate requirements just to accommodate that would probably be greater than the whole improvement budget available to EL for decades.
A logical alternative (if you ‘had’ to find a way to run into GCT) would be to bridge the river at the old Piermont, where the original Erie first terminated (with fast and effective river access south to many points on Manhattan!) and where, indeed, the Tappan Zee Bridge crossed the Hudson at its namesake point of minimal current (and its replacement was designed to have a heavy-rail-capable track). A similar approach grade to that from the current River Line up to the B&A/Castleton Cutoff could be built on the east side of the river, and trains then directed south to enter Grand Central relatively easily … with one proviso.
All trains into and out of Grand Central have, certainly since passage of the Kaufman Act, been required to operate under electric power
Just a geo-quibble, the Palasades are actually a sill formation.
The Phoebe Snow and the longer-lasting Lake Cities could have run in and out of Grand Central, Grand Central, Chicago, that is. But they did not. The Erie, and then the Erie-Lackawanna, ran in and out of Dearborn Station. Both were just-south-of-the-Loop Chicago terminals, along with La Sall (Sp?) Street.
When I saw the title of your new thread, CGT-Chicago is what I thought you meant.
There might have been a way, at one time, to route Erie and Lackawanna trains into Penn Statioln, NY, as was done for the B&O during WWI.
Erie didn’t get to Grand Central Station in Chicago for a variety of reasons. Its entry into the Chicago area was too far south (Erie also served Crown Point IN) and it needed a joint terminal road (a 20% interest in CWI) to get into Chicago. Dearborn Station was the Chicago terminal for CWI’s owners plus ATSF as a tenant.
NYC certainly wasn’t going to allow a competitor to use La Salle Street. NKP got there only because the Vanderbilt interests owned it for a while.
You know, this is the first time I’ve ever heard this, and I grew up and went to school on them for nearly 20 years. Wouldn’t be the first time that conventional ‘wisdom’ reinforcing itself in print and fable was based on a fundamental mistake! (In partial defense… the formation does become a dike when it turns west at Haverstraw…)
It’s going to be hard to unlearn ‘volcanic dike’ when I think about them now. That alliteration was pretty good.
All a very interesting set of railroads (Erie, Lackawanna, LV, NH, etc.) at least to a Chicagoan.
As a 7-year old boy, I recall watching some trains at the station in my aunt’s town, Hohokus. Would that have been the Erie?
Soytinly!
Ho-Ho-Kus is one of the more scenic Erie stations, on a long curve, with a convenient grade crossing at one end where you can set up to watch. I’ve spent several happy hours watching there.
One stop past Ridgewood, above where the Bergen County line rejoins the old main line.
I think her house was actually in Ridgewood, but her husband (a Princetonian) used the Ho-Ho-Kus stop as he claimed it was closer and thus more convenient. Not sure if that was really true, as he was a bit of a rake - cad - Lothario - Don Juan - letch (covering most of the old bases in one swell foop).
I think you can see some of the ‘political’ boundaries in the route map visible by clicking ‘show map’ on this page:
https://www.njtransit.com/rg/rg_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=TrainStationLookupFrom&selStation=64#
You will be able to zoom in and see familiar detail or get to Street View by ‘dragging Pegman onto the map’ or whatever …
(Incidentally, on the current version of the map, if you pan over to Waldwick on the curve, there’s an interesting train.)
You Jerseyfolk are reminding me of the South Park episode!
Don’t get us started, we’ll hijack this thread like you wouldn’t believe! [;)]
Oh, what the hell, here you go Charlie, any of these shots look familiar?
https://www.subwaynut.com/njt/hohokus/index.html
And just a little extra, here’s the station in “The 'Wood”.
https://www.subwaynut.com/njt/ridgewood/index.html
The whole website’s a gas, he’s gone everywhere!
We had a long-standing conspiracy in the media to keep non-New Jerseyans unaware of the good parts of the state, and corral them to the NEC and Turnpike/GSP industrial belt so they would keep going through and not stray to spoil the goodness, or settle and run the real-estate prices up. It worked surprisingly well in the years I was there, and appears to still be working pretty well. The Jersey Shore contribution was particularly valuable.
Greatest T-shirt I ever owned said this on the chest…
“Welcome to New Jersey! Now, GO HOME!”
And don’t get me (or Buddy the Cake Boss for that matter) started on “Jersey Shore!”
THOSE people weren’t even from New Jersey, they were New Yorkers!
And besides Jersey Shore is a town in Pennsylvania!
AND there’s an unincorporated community in Prince George County VA called Jersey!
I could bring up the English Channel Island called Jersey, but that’s a bit far off.
We could bring another state into the conversation. Back in antiquity, there was a song with state names scattered through it. However, I rememer only one pair=="Wjhat did Della wear, boys, what did Della wear? The answer should be obvious.
She wore her New Jersey, boys, she wore her New Jersey…
Mike weighs in:
Did EL have access to Grand Central Station?
Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, October 16, 2019 9:55 AM
https://ia800902.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/33/items/palisadesofhudso00
A joke from the 1970’s:
Question: Why does New York have all the lawyers & bankers, while New Jersey has all the refineries, chemical plants, slaughterhouses (I’m looking at you, Elizabeth, NJ), and landfills?
Answer: New Jersey had first pick.
I still smile at that.