To anyone who has installed sound in a steam loco; does it sound nearly as good as a QSI system as far as sound quality goes? I am not talking about features or fidelity to the prototype, but were you able to get the tonal quality? The reason I am asking (concerned?) is that all the sound engines I have are all QSI equipped, AND they all have a die cast tender bottom. It would seem to me that would contribute greatly to the quality, AND be darned hard to duplicate. I am not worried about being able to build the sealed backing “box”, etc., but that heavy solid mounting plate type surface does concern me. Has anyone fabbed a metal plate to address this issue?
I have dealt with sound engineering issues for 30 years, but have never ventured into the world of making a system to make or enhace sound, only tried to muffle it for environmental enhancement, OSHA compliance, etc. And building a muffler for a 1250 psi steam vent doesn’t reverse engineer to an HO model well. I do know rigid is key, and just don’t see how plastic can be as rigid as the die cast, BUT I don’t know how big a deal that is with “small” sound.
Thanks for any insight.
The QSI models have better volume than any of the Soundtraxx installations that I have been associated with so you might have point about the cast bottom.
When I had my BLI 2-8-2 (before it stopped working), it sounded much better, from a tonal standpoint, than the MRC sound decoder I installed in another 2-8-2. However, they all sound sort of “tinny” to me, not much mid or low range.
I installed an MRC Steam decoder in my LL 2-8-8-2, and although it does not sound as prototypical as the BLI Class A that I have, I think it still sounds good. For less than $50 from Micromark, I think it is a bargain. The speaker that comes with it is sealed so I mounted it in the tender with a piece of foam that I cut to the shape of the coal bin in the tender with the shape of the speaker cut out. I set the speaker facing up, and then I set the volume on low. The one thing that I did not like about the MRC decoder is that you only have two settings for volume (high and low) and nothing in between.
The speakers used by QSI are of much higher quality than those used by most SoundTraxx installers, and the QSI has more output power. MRC has a very weak amplifier when compared to QSI or SoundTraxx, and the speaker they provide is too small.
Face it you can’t compare even your PC’s speakers to the relatively tiny speakers in a loco or tender. The range and response isn’t there. Keeping at 50% or lower volume helps as it allows a better quality “suggestion of sound” to come through. Think about what you hear at 100 feet versus 1,000 feet away from a loco. I have to say my Soundtraxx unit is equal to the QSI, just different.
Virginian;
Rigidity is important, but a it is characteristic with on curve that tapers off quit quickly. 2mm (.080") styrene box in an HO locomotive is well into the plateau area.
Internal box volume is very important, bigger is better, at least until you get into cubic feet. As is maximizing the area of the speaker cone(s).
Clean power is very important. There are many amplifiers out thier to improve this side of the multi-dimensional system.
Virginian, I have a QSI Hudson from BLI, and a retrofitted Soundtraxx 100LC in a P2K Heritage 0-6-0. There really is little comparison, in my opinion, but the tiny tender in the 0-6-0 is at a disadvantage. The small speaker enclosure doesn’t help in the first place, but the sound is most definitely not as good as the QSI. To help you, if the QSI were rated at an honest 6.5 out of 10 ( an audiophile would understand that low rating), the Soundtraxx of my experience would rate a 4.5. Now that might seem hardly worth the trial, but the fact is that a soundless, somewhat ‘geary’ loco is no match for either sound system. They really do add much to the experience.
Short answer - yes. Long answer - To many people’s ear’s loud is synonymous with good quality (that’s the reason speaker salesman in stereo stores always turn the volume way up), the hardest part is to find high enough quality speakers, then to get appropriate sized and muffled baffles behind them. Make certain the tender “walls” are stiff enough too.
The key to any good speaker enclosure is to prevent all vibrations other than the speaker diaphram. In larger “real use” speakers metal is a disadvantage because it transmits vibrations worse than wood. For HO models I use PVC pipe fittings. Nice and thick, round and strong.
Interesting question.
A friend of mine installed a Soundtraxx DSX in a P2K E unit. I was impressed! With good baffling and high quality speaker, the sound was captivating! IMHO, it was more than loud enough.
While the QSI system can still be turned up to an even higher volume, IMHO, the Soundtraxx DSX sounds are slightly more accurate. My friend had me notice that with the DSX EMD 1st gen. decoder you actually hear the “transition” sound which is absent from the QSI decoders.
The “steamer” Tsunami decoder in his Westside GS-4 sounds phenomenal! It will give a BLI or MTH K4 steamer a serious run for the money with a much lower price $. Win-win!
Of course by all means I still admire the QSI system in BLI locomotives and plan on getting at least one E8. It was QSI that raised the bar in sound for the smaller scales and this “coaxed” other manufacturers to improve their sound products (poor old MRC, will they ever get the diesels right?.).
For that I give QSI a hearty salute. [4:-)][tup]
I have Six QSI loco’s and have installed Soundtraxx decoders in 12 more. The LC decoders don’t sound near as good as the QSI however I have 8 DSX decoders in my F units. I use top quality speakers and put in at least two speakers in each F unit where possible. I make styrene enclosures for all the speakers (except steam in the tenders). I think my DSX installs are as good in quality and sound as the QSI. I put in 560 -1200 uf stay alive capacitors on the DSX decoders. That makes a significant diferance over the LC decoders. I also use a 100uf cap for the speakers on any install that has more than one speaker. The larger the cap the more low freq is passed but you sacrifice some volume. I still have to turn down volume so it hasn’t been a prob as yet. I think really it costs almost as much to put sound in your self as compared to QSI equipped locos but I just get great satisfaction hearing great sound from a loco you did yourself. One downside is that the DSX does not have as many sounds as the QSI but that is ok with me. My favorite sounding engine of all is the ALCO hands down. I have an ABBA F unit lashup that all have sounds with a total of eight speakers. I love to just park them on a siding and let them idle in and out of sync while I work on the layout.
Can"t wait for the QSI update to hit the street. The first one I upgrade will be my Hudson and then my sorry sounding P2K-GP-9. The others will follow in no particular order.
Thanks for listening.
Terry[8D]
I have a BLI ATSF 4-8-4 with factory sound and a brass SP 4-8-2 with a Tsunami that I installed myself. The Tsunami has MUCH better sound. The Tsunami sounds are much crisper and cleaner. The BLI always has a certain level of white noise coming out of it, while the Tsunami has almost none. It’s clean enough to hear subtle nuances and “detail” in the sound, if that makes any sense.
I don’t know about loudness, as I haven’t cranked them both up and tried to see which one would win the volume contest. They both are more than loud enough for my small room, and I have them both turned down quite a bit.
The Tsunami install uses a 28x40 mm speaker in a custom enclosure. It is not rigidly mounted in the locomotive tender. It fires down through holes drilled in the tender floor since it’s an oil burner. Despite all that, it sounds great.
I also have a Loksound decoder in a Bachmann 4-6-0 and the sound quality of that is on a par with BLI. This one I know is not capable of as much volume but it is still more than adequate for my ears. Again, I have it turned down for normal layout use.
Recently I got an Athearn 4-6-6-4 with a factory installed MRC sound system and I usually leave that turned off because it sounds more like someone banging on garbage cans than a steam engine. I plan to replace the factory sound with a Tsunami eventually. Nice running engine, though.
I think the problem here is that people are equating more sound with better sound. Model sound should be just that…model…scaled DOWN. I suppose if you only have 1 sound loco on your layout, you might want it to fill the room. But if you have a dozen or so, like me, you soon learn to LOCALize the sound by scaleing it DOWN.
I have 3 BLI units, 7 Tsunami units and one DSX unit. In my opinion the Tsunami blows the BLIs out of the water in terms of sound quality. The DSX is compariable to the BLI, but I am not an audiophile…this is all qualitative. Ths tsunami also has a plethora of programming options that the BLI sorely lacks. But if your going with AMOUNT of loudness, then the BLI wins hands down.
David
In terms of sheer volume, locos with sound from the manufacturers (BLI, Atlas, Athearn, etc.) have the advantage of chassis and bodies designed in conjunction with the electronics. I have heard many aftermarket sound installations. There are many opinions regarding speaker placement and baffling. Some of the theories are misunderstood and results lead to sound that is low in volume, tinny or distorted. There are some things that prove to give you the best sound. If you have not done this, take the shell off some of the factory installed units. You will find the following:
- Multiple speakers are used whenever possible.
- Speakers are placed where none of air on the front side (cone side) of the speaker can reach the back side, especially when the shell is on ( but not always).
- Most of the speakers are pointed DOWN toward the track (coal load mounting in tenders being the exception). This creates a natural effect which adds volume.
- The speakers move air through a chamber. This is not to be confused with a baffle, which is used to isolate the air in front of the speaker from the air on the back of the speaker. The chamber is liked to that of a person speaking through an old time megaphone or large cone. This adds warmth, depth and tone to the sound.
- Some of the P2k diesels use an A frame with speakers on each side. The combination of the A frame with the shell make an infinite baffle with a pseudo isobaric chamber. Also if you notice the speakers used are rated at only 0.2 watts ! (BTW the wattage rating is often used as the only criteria when choosing a speaker; this is NOT the ONLY meaningful specification).
I recommend experimenting with various baffle and chamber designs prior to installing your sound units. You will be surprised at the results you can obtain. Also, choose speakers that offer the best sound pressure level (sensitivity rated in decibels or dBs) and the widest frequency response. Harder materials used for baffling have an advantage ov
Boy ya’ll seam to have a lot of knowalge on this topic!! I’am new at this sound installing,I have just finished my first try,an Soundtraxx DSD 050 in my IHC 2-8-2 tender,I’am now waiteing to receive the Exhaust can from soundtraxx,other than that everything works just fine,whistle,bell,air dump,an things like that,I understand the new systeams don’t need this cam??I used an 8 ohm one inch speaker,housed in an card board tube,pointting up through the coal tander and sealed,Would it be better to use PSP pipe pointing down through the tender floor?my current tender is all plastic.I have an extria tender with a metal frame I could use,a little help on this would be nice?
JIM[?][8D]
Take that with a grain of salt. While, these days, there are other ways to know the position of a wheel like infrared, laser, magnet, etc. Many of the systems that claim they don’t need it - also do not syncronize the sound with the wheels. They use things like “voltage” to control the chuff - gag…
It would probably be much better to use PSP pipe rather than card board period. As to making it top or bottom firing, that is something that there is not going to be a “better” way. If you’ve already gone to all the work to make the “coal load” transparent to sound, I think I would stick with the top firing and just make it work. In my opinion the biggest advantages of bottom firing arrangments are that 1. they are easier to do. 2. The sound has to reflect back off the track, so it is more diverse and less easy to tell it is coming from the tender rather than the locomotive where it is supposed to be. 3. One can often use a much larger speaker with a bigger magnet in a bottom firing arrangement.
A big (three watt) bottom firing speaker in an HO Athearn dummy. Note the body shell becomes the speaker enclosure (see white partitions) when put onto the frame. Yes, the bottom of the “fuel tank” has been cut out.
oleirish,
The new Tsunami decoders from Soundtraxx have auto chuff, which uses part of the motor feedback circuit to synchronize the chuff. It works fairly well.
Having the speaker pointed up will produce a brighter sound and will be more dependent on the sensitivity of the speaker to produce adequate volume. Your tube should be made of the hardest material you can use in the available space. If it is not too much trouble try, a PSP tube hardened with coating with CA; this will make it even harder; compare it with your cardboard tube. This is a good time to experiment to find the quality of sound that is most pleasing to you.
Having a spare metal frame tender gives you more options. Firing the speaker downward will enhance the sound as aforementioned. I recommend the Intervox S11X16VNS speaker. This speaker is 30 mm wide by 40 mm long with a depth of 11.3 mm. If you can seal the tender, it will make a nice enclosure, giving you more low frequencies. Place the speaker on a gasket made of .040 styrene - this prevents the front side of the cone from hitting the floor (assuming you will perforate it). Don’t place a speaker grille between the tender floor and the speaker.
I belong to a club where members are using top and bottom firing tender installations. One of our members is a DCC dealer listed in MR. We have had several discussions on the topic of sound and speaker placement. My recommendations are based on our combined electronics experience ( see my profile) and the results of various installations, as well a comments from other DCC professional installers.
Texas Z - I got two of the large oval 3w speakers you are using by mistake a while back. I kept them and always figured i would find a loco that it would fit in. I just ordered a Bowser Lite Mike Kit. I think it will fit in the tender. I bet you get some great sound out of that speaker. Are the better lows noticible? I emailed Loy Toys when I got it and they rec using a 100 uf capacitor with it to allow it to pass more of the low end.
Terry[8D]
It seems to me that you DCC guys could simply buy an extra decoder, set the address the same as a loco on the track, and feed the second decoder’s output into a stationary subwoofer to enhance the mids and lows. This is assuming that the decoder samples are stored with a full frequency range and not chopped since small speakers can’t reproduce low frequencies.
I haven’t tested this yet, because we are on DC, but as soon as QSI gets around to actually shipping aftermarket decoders instead promising vaporware, I’ll let you know how it works.
Texas Z thanks a bunch,will give it an try,you guys keep kicking it around I’am all Ears!!LOL
cmarchan; also thank you,I’am working on the metal tender,getting it reday,need to go to Lowes and get some PVC pipe,I’am also working on an small five pin plug set up,the mess I’am using now is a " mess ",useing deans plugs (a lot of wire and no where to put it)
Thanks all
JIM