I started this thread with the innocent intention to give some views on European model railroading practice, which has certainly be coined, at least on the Continent, by German practice, as the bulk of products available in the European markets comes from this country. You cannot discuss the issue without mentioning Marklin, who was the first to market HO equipment in the world and may be rightfully called the “mother of all HO activities”. Most of the forum members know Marklin as well. Marklin´s roots are in the toy sector, but did not all brands start there?
Each country in Europe has a very active model railroading scene and there is many a fine maker of excellent models - much more than I see through my Teutonic glasses which I have been accused of wearing. Have you heard of Jeco AB before? They make HO scale locos of Swedish prototype in DC or AC, R-T-R and kits. They also make a catenary system following Swedish prototype. There is a guy in Sweden who makes the finest Swiss prototype HO catenary system I have ever seen - unfortunately out of reach in terms of price, but most likely worth every cent. Numerous young businesses in Poland, Czech Republic are marketing craftsman products with a level of detail we all had been dreaming about some years ago. Publishing a list of the European who is who in the model railroading business would probably make the server burst - so I will refrain from it.
One of the really nice aspects of our mutual hobby is, that there is so much room for different ways and interests. Through a forum like this one we can now gain inside views from all over the world and we can share our experience on the basis of mutual respect.
As I see a danger that this thread ends up in a discussion of Marklin vs. the rest of the world or Germany wanting to dominate the worldwide mrr activities, I see it fit to pull the plug.
I still hope to have contributed a little to a model railroading oriented cross-cultural discussion. Than
No, I don’t think we need to close this thread just yet. First though, full disclosure, I run using the Märklin analog system but run many brands of stock and power. Learned some time ago that brand loyalty isn’t important and wish I had learned that when I restarted in the hobby with only my handful of childhood stock. Would have gone DC back then had I known how much more flexible it would be in terms of freedom from proprietary systems.
Those tight radii are common to all European makes and a result of space constraints. As has been pointed out Europeans don’t have as much space available as we do here. Doesn’t mean one has to stick with them though.The flanges, studs, track profiles have already been mentioned but I’d like to get back to the couplers. Since Frank Forsten’s magnificent layout was mentioned, did anyone notice he uses Kadee couplers? Many of the more “hard core” are using them.It’s true European (German) kits are much more ready to build than kits made (sometimes in Europe) for the US market, but Europeans can scratchbuild/kitbash with the best of them. Ditto on weathering… In general I think European modelers and US modelers have influenced each other far more than we admit/know.
Look at MR and all the articles by Pelle Søeborg, Josef Brandle, and others. Tools like the Noch Grassmaster… I could go on. North Americans can argueably be credited with bringing an operations based approach to Europe and are held in very high regard like John Allen.
At the end of the day, if we leave out the brand fixation and troublesome details like flanges… [;)] we will find that we have much more in common than sets us apart and that we all learn from and inform each other.
Here a few of my favorite European layouts in H0 and N, personal and show. Ignore the fact that most of these links are not in English and just look at the pictures.
Thank you Peter, for your balanced response, I see absolutely no reason to close the thread, there is nothing wrong with a little discussion. As you rightly stated, the two cultures have learnt from each other and that a suggestion of pros/cons for one or t’other is grotesque, each have their followers, just as long as it is modelling does anything else matter.
BTW, a small correction to the claim that Maerklin was ’ the first to market HO equipment in the world’ I believe that Henry Greenly* was the ‘father’ of HO, he offered the metric/imperial mixture some five years before and his claim has been substantiated elsewhere.
Another layout worth mentioning is Gordon and Maggie Gravett’s Pempoul:
*HG was the driving force behind the Model Railway Club, the oldest in the world. He also was the consultant for the R&HDR and persuaded Frank Hornby to use 4mm/12" bodies on 16.5mm gauge mechanisms thus ensuring that British model railways have been out of step with the world. Sorry about the history lesson.
Very interesting topic, one of the few I’ve read every thread! Not being American nor European, I think I may give a very imparcial opinion. As Wibbly said, one must not confuse german MRing with Europena MRing, since I’ve found profund differences between German, English, French and even Australian (mostly English) and Eastern Euro models (Russian and ex soviet block countries). Jap modeling have their ways too.
Down here (South America), the most popular modeling is the Euro way (specially the German). Here in Colombia hobby shops are exclusivly Maerklin, miniTrix, Roco, Brawa, etc… very few Lima and Bachmann and if you look very well, you may find some Atlas. The main reason for this is that my country have a tradition of more friendly commercial exchange between the Euros than with the US (recent events are changing this). The next reason is an historical one, many of the “serious” hobbyist used to be German and Italian emigrants. The reasons I chose American modeling are: 1. More afinity with the “American Culture” due to family and friend relationships (I visit the US very regulary). 2. More quality for the price. 3. I find freight operations more interesting than passenger. 4. Heavy industries 5. HO! 6. Standarization (long live NMRA!). 7. Diversity of products.
I’m not telling one is better than the other, but just stating what’s more inetersting for my taste. I hope that the Free Commercial Agreement will be signed soon between the US and my country.
For those on the East Coast, the ETE will be having a 2 day show in Syracuse, NY November 7&8 (check under EuroShows on the home page).
The Brits bridle at being referred to as Europeans (even if they were connected to the Continent during the last Ice Age), so be careful about lumping Her Majesty’s loyal subjects with those living on the other side of the English Channel.
As for elsewhere in the world, Blair Koistra of Walla Walla Valley Railway fame ( http://www.wwvrailway.com/ )has gone Down Under for his latest inspiration.
If I may cut in, Ulrich mentioned Swedish model RR´s, and I just have to show you what is probably the most famous Swedish MR´s of them all: The WNJ. It was created by Krister Brandt in the 70´s and was constantly evolved. KB died last year, but his society and wife is keeping it much alive. They have a meeting once a year wich is THE place to be if you want to see the latest in craftsmans kits and brass kits (and a lot of other niceties).
Sorry I’m going to miss the show. We’re heading back to California from Maine in mid-October. I have to be back in Monterey County in time for jury duty starting 9 November. However, I expect the ETE will have something in Roseville, CA, especially since the ETE is one of the sponsors.
Epoch I - Providencial railway modelling untill formation of Deutche Reichbahn.
Epoch II - The Reichbahn era. 1920-1945
Epoch III - Post war era untill computerized numbers introduced in 1968
Epoch IV - Modern era untill new paint schemes introduced in mid 1980s.
Epoch V - Recent modern era with new paint schemes.
This have become standard though do not aply on all countries as they shifted their paint schemes invidually when ever they felt it was neccersary.
I live in Sweden and done lot’s of modelling in US prototypes and with European prototypes. In my future layout I try to coporate best of both. From the american the focus on freights and switching. Mostly as we here in europe tends to compress things a little too much. Most of the fancy IC-trians are having very long consists and are space eaters so I am focussing on secondary lines where the trains are shorter and you have a chanche to go with shorter trains. Alos I have had a cunning plan of a industrial shelf layout in line what Lance Mindheim has done but with European (swedish) prototype. I have since years added on Kadees on all equipment with NEM coupler shaft and by laborating with the different size of them I have pretty close coupling between all the eguipment. Industrial buildings allaround the world in modern era are pretty much the same so I can use Pikestuff, Walthers and any other modern US kits though redecaled to fit the scenes. Track will feature larger radius turnouts aswell and I guess the sidings be a little less than found on switching layouts in general. Mostly as the foot print of industries served today tend today dominates the railroad and you need to have decent space for trucks to enter the industries and generous parking space for emplyees and customers. Perhaps it all ends up with a port kind of layout with a small three or four track yard where the cars are shifted in order ot serve the i
Someone mentioned COUPLERS? Our club models the 1938-9 years and our layout is decades OLD. However, the engines have all been retrofited with DCC electronically controlled couplers using F2 on the decoder. This is real switching in the yards. I wish the US modelers would force the issue so as to dump the Kadees for these beauties which are not bulky or clunky as stated, they are not US knuckles either, but magnetic. I model US as well as European and would hope some retired engineer would use the system to manufacture this in a knuckle-like coupler.
US couplers are neither bulky nor clunky, Just like Euro modelers we prefer our models as close to proto as possible. The KD and MTL couplers are quite efficient and for the most part replicate the operations of proto US couplers. THey are also a standard in US practices, magnetic Euro style couplings will never phase them out.
The coupler situation in Europe is still a formidable mess. Each manufacturer has his own design, some of them match, some don´t. At least, most of them now use the NEM coupler pocket for installation, so changing couplers can be done easily. Somehow this reflects the prototype situation - European railroads could not agree upon an common automatic coupling system for over a hundred years. N scale is in a little better position - they all use the Rapido style coupler.
The worst part of it, that, whatever coupler you use, they all look wrong - way to bulky and far off from the prototype, which is still screw link coupling. As European model railroad operation emphasizes more on running trains than switching (the exemption being the UK), quite a lot of folks put an imitation of the screw link coupler to the front of the loco, add the airhoses and thus get a more prototypical look of the train, which is seldom taken apart.
I think, that US model railroaders are far better off with the Kadees and Kadee look alikes. If you de-install the trip pin and add those magnetic air hoses, you are closer to the prototype Europe will ever get.
Depends on how you look at it. If you count trains the European roads are busier. If you count cars the US is very comparable, if you count tons the US is way ahead.
A “busy” US main route might have 50-60 trains a day. A US route that runs 50 trains a day with 100 cars per train moves 5000 cars. A European terminal that runs 500 10 car trains a day moves 5000 cars. On a really heavy route like the UP’s east-west route they might run 125-150 trains aday with an average of over 100 cars a train, that can easily hit 15,000 cars per day and over 25,000 cars a day on peak days.
On tonnage its not even close, the US roads run bigger and heavier cars and waaaaaaaay more of them.
I have traveled to Europe on 5 occasions. On several of my trips (which included Germany, Austria, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, England and Holland) I was in Europe for a couple months, or many weeks and stayed with locals and got to really interact rather than only see Europe as a camera toting tourist. Most of your list of differences became apparent pretty quickly and it definitely opens ones eyes to the differences between the U.S. and most of the rest of the world.
Since many Americans never experience the world, often many don’t appreciate the blessings we have with the relative low cost of housing, land, gasoline, products in general. Because of our relative ease of access, we have become quite materialistic relative to the rest of the world. One of the visible evidences of this are the proliferations of storage business which have popped up all over the place where people can go store “stuff” which they don’t have room for. I have seen many a garage which is crammed with boxes of stuff so that the home owners can’t even park a car in their two car garage. Probably since the 1950’s, the U.S. has really prospered and had an explosion of the middle class, which has afforded many the ability to have model trains on a scale which very few Europeans can manage, Japan even less. (getting back to the original topic).
… that I have yet to see! In the good old days of the 1960´s, a branch line local might have had only 10 cars. Regular freight trains can be a little over half a mile long, that equates to over 50 cars. The average maybe 40 cars, moving at speeds up to 75 mph. In the not so far away future, mile-long trains will becoming a regular sight.
First post! I figured I’d ask a European…What would be needed to operate a North American HO set in Poland? I wanted to send a Canadian engine and rolling stock to a little boy there and then thought through some of the issues. Input 120V 50/60 HZ, Poland is at 230V (I don’t even know what I’m talking about)
The Germans, especially the older model train companies do tend to march to their own beat. Along with Marklin in HO, I also have some live stream models from Regner that run on G scale track. They, still to this very day, use their own gas filling valve for the fuel tank vs the industry wide common Ronson type that is self venting. For myself, I enjoy Marklins ablity to fit into small spaces, deep flanges keep trains on the track better and they run beautifully. Now I run older Marklin, pre digital for the most part. With all drivers geared to the AC motor. Newer models have can motors and rely on the side rods to do the rest of the motion work. But thats the great part of the hobby, there is something for every one, at every price point. And despite the high prices, even the newest stuff from Marklin is a sellout in the USA, try to find the new Flying Scotsman for example.
