Fantasy vs. a prototype layout... thoughts?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Not sure where this question belongs… so General Discussion it is (forgive me if this should be elsewhere).

What are the thoughts that go into picking a prototype? Do you need one to be a REAL model railroader?

As outlined in Vote for My First 4x8 Layout - You Vote and I Will Build it I am a novice starting my first layout. I have decided on a 4x8 track plan and have picked Byron Henderson’s Fall Mills as my trackplan. Was going to build a fantasy layout but am now leaning towards a prototype.

The prototype that I am attracted to is the Quebec Gatineau Railway (QGRY) but I am concerned about finding appropriate locomotives and rolling stock.

Anyone model QGRY or have advice for a newbie?

2

Yes, I would guess finding steam locomotives for; or, diesels painted for the Quebec Gatineau Railway will be difficult. There are lots of railroads I’ve never even heard of and this is another one of them. If you have some painting and decaling skills and decals are available, the fact that locomotives would need to be painted for your chosen road shouldn’t deter you. Also, it would be nice if information and photos would be available. Do a search for the QGRY to see if information is out there. If not, than you maybe want to find a road a little more easy to find equipment for.

I assume you are attracted to Canadian Railways. Another person here on the MRForums has been talking about how difficult it is to find CN steam.

Equipment manufacturers always look to sell the most amount of there offerings as they can and tend to stick to roads they know are popular: Pennsylvania, C&O, Union Pacific, Santa Fe, B.N., B.N.S.F. Southern Pacific and a few others always seem to have good availability, whereas others you would think to be popular, must not sell, as offerings are few and far between.

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While I understand the appeal with and the advantages of a freelance (“fantasy”) layout, I like modeling an actual prototype because it helps me to maintain a focus in what I’m trying to accomplish. While I’m not modeling a specific location or stretch of track along my prototype (NYC), the locomotives, structures, rolling stock, autos, etc - all would/could have been used by the NYC in that particular era (early 40s).

I’ve also discovered that there is a fascination and reward in digging and learning about an actual prototype - especially a fallen flag (defunct RR) like the NYC. To model it allows me to see it in it’s glory again (at least according to my limited knowledge base) - even though I wasn’t around to see or appreciate it.

The challenge with picking a more obscure prototype is the lack of available models on the market. For the QGR - you’ll be pretty hard-pressed to find anything. The only way around that is if you are willing to paint and detail/decal undecorated locomotives and/or rolling stock kits.

Tom

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Absolutely not. Some of the best model railroads I’ve grown to admire over the years are freelance. V&O, G&D, Sunset Valley, Utah Belt, … To be a real model railroader, one must simply have some model of a railroad. Doesn’t matter if the model is a really good or really poor. Some semblance of a train/railroad that is not the real thing is a model.

However I strongly advise beginners to pick a prototype, pick a location, pick and era and have the will power to stick to it. This is because developing a really good freelance is hard work. I requires really good imagination and much much more research than simply following a prototype. Most people’s freelance railroads end up being a mess of illogically linked equipment/structures/scenery meshed together.

On the other hand I have had over 30 years of trying to pick a prototype too. Virginia & Truckee, Santa Fe to D&RGW to CB&Q to GN to NP and back to Santa Fe. Also really like N&W, T&P, KCS, M&StL, Louisville & Wadley, Belfast & Moosehead Lake, Canon City & San Juan, eeeee iIIIII how does one choose.

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So the question is how closely does one follow a prototype? Other than era and location.

Obviously some license is ‘allowed’ as it’s impossible to get a 1:1 relationship with distance. Can you for example be true to a locomotive and rolling stock and invent landforms that do not exist in ‘reality’? Or do you try to model industries and geography as identically as possible?

The good news is that for the QGRY an Atlas Locomotive is around from a couple of years ago.

The bad news is that I have NO paint/decal skills.

A workaround may be to add in some other rolling stock that could theoretically make its way into the area like CP.

P.S. I can see how research could be fun! Thank G-d for google images and google maps!

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I agree…It takes lots of discipline and advanced railroad knowledge to model a believable freelance railroad…Of course if one says I model the Hooten Hollow & Western and all I see is CSX engines-that’s not IMHO freelancing…

Here is two of my freelance short line engines.The Slate Creek Rail is 4 miles long and serves the Slate Creek Industrial park…The second operation is SCR’s Summerset RY that is 2 miles long and serves the Lakeview Industrial Park.SCR has a third operation but,I’ll stop here since I just want to show examples of a well planed freelance railroad.

Notice both are EMDs due the ease of obtaining EMD OEM parts.

It far easier to model a prototype railroad since the majority of the work is done for you.

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I model Conrail in the 1975 to 1985 time period (Yes Cr only began in 1976) which allows me to run any engine that were merged into Conrail.

Many times other modelers ask why I have Reading or EL engines on my layout right along with Penn Central.

I have to remind them about the Conrail Merger and then have to explain about the many Railroad that came to form Conrail.

So in modeling this time and railroad I can run just about anything Eastern.

Now I am modeling an obscure CR branch in Western PA but what is nice is that it is almost in my backyard so it is easy to go out and take pictures of the buildings - Doing a Prototype is a lot easier when you were able to Railfan the line

Unfortunately it is all gone now all the short lines hauling Coal - GONE!

But it is alive and well in my Basement!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

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You are a very brave person. Within a couple of weeksof joining, you post a topic that usually results in some serious flame wars around here. Normally, my advice to people like you is to do what pleases you and to heck with anyone else. It still is, but since you’re new to the hobby, and have admitted that you aren’t likely to be successful painting and detailing your own locos, I’d stick with a prototype thst’s readily available. That doesn’t mean you can’t run Union Pacific locos through northeastern scenery if that takes your fancy. A lot of us do stay fairly faithful to the prototype though, although people like me tinker with history somewhat so that we can run what we like. Also, all of your rolling stock need not be from your prototype, only your motive power, MOW equipment, and cabooses do. Railroads interchange cars as necessay to make deliveries, so a good percentage of your rolling stock can and should be from other railroads.

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It’s easier to follow a prototype if you stick to the diesel eras. All the major scales have a pretty good selection of diesels although not always at the same time. While many road names are used, smaller roads may require repainting/decaling. You may also want to modify and/or add details that are applicable to your prototype.

Steam locomotives are more probablematic - usually only a few major roads are well represented such as PRR, AT&SF, etc. HO has the widest selection followed by N and O 3 rail. But even in HO you may be hard pressed to find every type of steam locomotive for a particular road. Brass may help fill the gap, but at a price.

Free lancing frees you from all these problems - you use whatever is available that appeals to you. Of course keeping to the same era and not getting too crazy is more realistic - no double heading 4-4-0’s and Dash 8’s. You just paint and/or letter for your own road. It helps to avoid locomotives unique to one road like Big Boys.

Protolancing is an intermediate idea where you have your own road but follow the practices of a prototype. Here you use equipement that is comparable to your prototype but not correct for it and letter it for your own road. That is if NW2 switchers aren’t availeable you might use SW9’s instead or a USRA 0-6-0 switcher instead of the slope back tender 0-6-0.

Another approach is to letter every thing for you prototype using what’s available. Again use SW9 for an NW2. You could also use numbers that the protoype didn’t use. Manufacturers used to be very prolific about taking a specific model such as a B&O E27 and lettering it for a wide variety of roads - some still do. The advantage here is that you use any specific locomotives that are available for your road and fill in with comparables. The ides here is to capture the spirit of the road.

As with locomotives, so it goes with freight cars, pa

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well as stated before you can (If you really want to) paint and decal your own locos. as for whether or not to freelance, why not! The SP&S unfortunately shares a similar issue on lack of loco’s and rolling stock(that are not specially commissioned by places like the SP&SHS and Lowell smith models) but that’s where a brush, some paint, and decals come in handy! I got a couple SP&S locos I want that did make it to the “merger.” remember it’s your railroad run what you want!

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I don’t see any problem with going totally freelance, if that is what you decide you want to do. Still you would need to be able to paint and decal for this new road. Follow prototype practices; but, above all have fun! Use your imagination and remember that this is your railroad, if you decide Free Lancing isn’t working; or conversely, Prototyping isn’t any fun, you can always change your mind. You are going with a layout designed by a knowledgeable designer, what difference does it make what name is on the equipment? Follow this rule: "Dang the torpedoes, full speed ahead and “Hey, I own this railroad, I will do what I darn well please!”

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Excuse my babbling rambling thoughts…

While I support that in general,I also caution new modelers against buying everything under the sun including the kitchen sink…

A new modeler would be well advised to select a prototype or freelance railroad and stick with it…

A good thought that but,how many of us “old timers” ends up with a hodge podge collection of locomotives collected over the years simply because they look “cool” or some such fool thing?

Can we expect anything less from a new modeler? I don’t think so since the majority of us is like a kid in a candy shop.[(-D]

I suppose when its all said and done the whole point of the hobby is to relax and have fun by doing what suits you.

babble over.

13

TZ,

I surprised that with your pick of the old layouts of time,G&D, etc… You didn’t mention the AL&P, the Alturus and Lone Pine Railroad,one of my favorites,along with your picks, unless of course you didn’t care for that one…

Cheers,

Frank

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As closely as you want. Some people are very faithful to the prototype. Some people are almost in name only.

While many people don’t see this as an advantage, I percieve an advantage of modeling the prototype being the extent to which it limits the modeler. By choosing a particular railroad, locale and era, it narrows the focus and answers a lot of questions.

I have a 12x23 ft room and I am trying to model a 70 mile long branch. Obviously I have had to make severe compromises on the geography. My landforms are only generally representative of the prototype.

By choosing a prototype, that helps set my industries, it helps set the stations and track configurations. As much as I have condensed things, I still have a definite prototype influence in the track arrangements. That also affects my choices of rolling stock and engines. The advantage being it gives me restraint against buying “one of everything”. As a result I end up with a more appropriate and coherent roster. And it makes my hobby dollar go further. I’m not buying really cool engines that I won’t use.

While picking an obscure line is sometimes a challenge. If you persevere you can often find a lot of information. I model the Wilmington & Northern Branch of the Philadelphia & Reading RR (the Reading) in 1900-1905. While one would think finding out details on something that long ago would be impossible, I have equipmen

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Dave,You brought up some excellent thoughts…

I will add this as a thought…There’s a saying in trout fishing that we can use…Trout fishermen say “match the hatch”…We should say “match the industries” when we choose freight cars.There no need to buy a propane tank car if we don’t have a industry to send it to…

Ah,but,Larry you’re forgetting through trains…True enough but, if we have a small layout should we not have a wider selection of cars we can used versus those we can’t? Of course being a odd fellow I try my best to avoid “oh,gee there’s that dented railgon going to Williams Scrap steel and Iron again” syndrome by rotating the cars I use…

16

A few random thoughts from someone who has been doing both prototype and freelance modeling for about 40 years now.

My freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL interchanges with the B&O, C&O and Western Maryland - on the areas of the layout as modeled.

I try to be reasonably accurate with the models for those prototype roads.

I do not model specific real places, even if some place names on the layout are named after real places.

I work hard at giving the scenery and features a realistic flavor of the Mid Atlantic where all these railroads - real and fictional - are located.

I stick to my modeled era pretty closely - 1954 - with a few little “stretches” in history and or time - mostly stuff most people would not even know, and that actually add to the effect of portraying that “period” in history.

Freelance modeling, or “protolance” modeling is actually a little more difficult in some ways than just following a prototype in my view. Rather than just researching “what was”, and then getting as close as is reasonable, good protolance modeling requires a deeper understanding of why and how things work, and how history evolved in railroading to allow you build a believable fictional history.

And that requires just as much research and possibly more discipline than simply following a prototype.

Unlike many modelers, I am not really a collector of model trains - I don’t own models of “famous” stuff like Big Boys, K4’s, GG1’s, NYC Hudson’s, etc,etc.

I don’t buy models that don’t fit the theme and era of the layout. I don’t take locos that a 1950’s east coast line would NOT have had and just slap ATLANTIC CENTRAL on them anyway.

The whole point is for it to be believable even though it is fiction - like a good period movie.

I respect those who follow a prototype closely, and as stated I model the C&O, B&O and WM with some degree of accuracy. But no one prototy

17

My answer is “do what you like” .

Even the modeler who is most obsessed with modeling reality fails to do so immediately after bending the flex track into something tighter than 40 inch radius curves. Once the track is bent that sharply, why would so many other details be so important? Plausibility and a representation of the real thing is the ultimate goal for most modelers.

Selecting a somewhat abscure prototype to model makes it difficult to find factory models to fill your roster, which, as you point out, requires your painting (and maybe puttying) skills to meet your standards.

Fortunately, the QGRY is part of the Genesse & Wyoming family of railroads, and all locomotives get the same paint scheme. Many manufacturer’s, including Atlas, have offered many of the G&W locos over the years. Its just a matter of taking a hobby knife dipped in pine sol to scratch away the two black letters that populate the other railroad’s G&W emblem, and replace them with Q, G, decals; if you can locate those.

I would just find the Atlas GP40-2 you mentioned and splurge for the DCC/Sound version, an

18

LION’S previous layout, The Eregion Railroad was pure fantasy. It was based on JRR Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings. I modeled the area around Bree where the Great West Road crossed the Greenway. I modeled the line between Bree and Fornost, and had staging to represent the rest of the railroad.

I imagined commuter service between Archet and Bree, and between the Sire and Bree, with regional and continental service passing through Bree.

Train No. 1 (northbound) The Kings Express from Gondor to Fornost. Electric locomotives were cut at Hollin (off layout) and a Pair of Alco PA-2s brought the truncated train to Fornost.

Train No. 2 (southbound) The Kings Express from Fornost to Gondor. Additional sleepers and electric locomotives were added at Hollin, the PA-2 came off.

Train No. 3 (eastbound) The North Star Express from Blue Mountains to Lonely Mountain.

Train No. 4 (westbound) The North Star Express from Lonely Mountain to Blue Mountains.

All of these trains arrived at Bree at 1300 hours and departed at 1400 hours, thus they could make connections to all points in Middle Earth

Train No. 5 (eastbound) The Mariner from Grey Havens to Rivendell
Train No. 6 (westbound) The Mariner from Rivendell to Grey Havens
Train No. 7 (northbound) The Mariner from Gondor to Bree
Train No. 8 (southbound) The Mariner from Bree to Gondor

All arrived at Bree at 0100 in the morning, and sleeping cars were switched between trains, they departed at 0200. There were no coach accommodations on these all-sleeper trains.

Other trains filled out a timetable of over 100 daily trains ALL of which made an appearance at BREE.

The Official Timetable also listed Regional services in the south between Hollin, Lothlorien, Rohan, and Gondor, as well as service on the Gondor and Southern Railroad. The G&S was mostly a regional passenger and commuter service, but the line to Far Harad carried unit oil trains by the dozens each day. I guess a pipeli

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I am thinking that most famous model railroads, from Frank Ellison’s Delta Lines through Bill Darnaby’s Maumee Route, are freelance. Jack Brgess’ Yosemite Valley Railroad, and Tony Koester’s NKP Cloverleaf, and San Diego’s Tehachapi layouts are the only prominate prototype layouts that come to mind. There are many fine smaller layouts that are based on prototypes. With all prototype layouts, compromises are made to include essential elements. The challenge is the tremedous amount of research that goes into prototype modeling… and then, that research can lead to new interests.

20

I have been into MR since 1959 and have never modeled a prototype. I guess when I think prototype, the best one can hope for is pure prototypical locos and rolling stock for any era, but it falls flat in that your layout at the very finest will only have prototypical chunks, scattered here and there, assuming you are a master modeler.

I choose fantasy roads that fit into the historical and probable context of some protoypical roads and eras. This means a bit of research into the history and geography of what you want to do. Your fantasy road may perhaps claim a connection to a prototype railroad at some point that need never actually be modeled.

The true beginner will be all over the place! I know I was. However, with experience and knowledge in the study of railroading, the MR will fall into a niche and nestle comfortably into it.

I would hate to say I am going to do a prototype layout. Only very large layouts might undertake to do only a smallish part of a true division of a real railroad and come through it in a high scale, believable fashion.

A fanatsy road is where you are the boss and as long as you obey the geography and rules of railroading history related to your chosen era, anything you do will fly if you have a historically probable explanation for what is going on and why.

Richard