…With the old high wheeler’s…80" or so…and turning rpm’s to allow 100 plus mph…I wonder how the counterweight side of the wheels stayed together…Plus the dynamics produced must have made some wild harmonics at certain rpm’s.
[#offtopic][#offtopic] I know this is off topic, so hopefully the context *** will forgive me, but you don’t know of any color photo’s of a T-1, do you?
Thequestion should have clarrified whether we’re talking about a one time occurance or day in and day out regular operation. If we’re talking about daily operation the crown must go to the Milw A class 4-4-2s and, later the F-7 4-6-4s. Until the ICC imposed a maximum of 99MPH in the late 40s, the Hiawathas exceeded 100MPH on a daily basis.
Thequestion should have clarrified whether we’re talking about a one time occurance or day in and day out regular operation. If we’re talking about daily operation the crown must go to the Milw A class 4-4-2s and, later the F-7 4-6-4s. Until the ICC imposed a maximum of 99MPH in the late 40s, the Hiawathas exceeded 100MPH on a daily basis.
http://www.broadway-limited.com/products/images/t1sample/front34.jpg
It is a accurate HO Scale model recently released by BLI. I hope to find others somewhere on the net eventually.
I think the question adequately conveys the key points of interest , as writted.
When people ask what the land speed record is, they aren’t looking for a mean, ot average figure, they are looking for the fastest “one time ever” speed…
And considering all above data I still believe the 7002 Atlantic A 7 4-4-2 with it’s run of 3 miles in 85 sec with revenue passenger cars might qualify as the unofficial speed king at a bit over 127 mph.
There was something in the appendix to the book about the C&NW 400 that one day they had to stop for a red signal and to make up time they “flogged” one of the big Pacifics uphill and then opened her up and reached 120 mph, I think it was on the way into Chicago.
A couple of questions about those Milwaukee Road Hiawatha Atlantics and Hudsons.
Did 100 MPH operation put any kind of stress on the rails or add to track maintenance? That steam engines “pound the road” was always an issue compared to Diesel, there probably were some steam engines that were particularly hard on the tracks, and I imagine a lot of effort went into balancing them. Trains had this thing a while back about a “bring back steam” "or “what steam could have been” article – don’t know if it was about the ACE-3000 or some other concept, where they talked about a T-1 style duplex driving 4 axles with two sets of cylinders, but unlike a T-1, they had inside rod connections to crank axles, which was explained could be “dynamically balanced” in a way that a conventional Hudson or Northern never could be. I believe the French had a kind of crank-axle interconnected duplex, but then the European railroads had different standards on what level of maintenance they would put up with in railroad equipment.
Second question, what was it like to accelerate a train up to 100 MPH with only 2 (Atlantic) or 3 (Hudson) powered axles? Steam could put out a whole lot more HP than early Diesel, especially if your boiler could keep up, but there is still a question about providing useful levels of acceleration to 100 MPH that 100 MPH running resulted in a high average speed.
Final question – these engines were oil burners. What was the rationale for that?
Paul-that Trains article was in the June 1974 issue. Were the CMSP&P 4-6-4s called Baltics ?
My only experience was a Burlington excursion Northern pulling 18 passenger cars. It took 30 minutes to reach 90mph. The basic shape of a train is pretty aerodynamic, so I’d think it could accelerate much faster pulling a short train.
In the absence of precise timing, no American speed record will ever top that of the Mallard.
The Milwaukee Road’s A 4-4-2s and F7 4-6-4s with their 84" drivers had speedometers that registered to 120 MPH, and recording tapes have shown that the engines pegged the needles at 120 MPH and a flat line was recorded at that level. But nobody knows how much faster than 120 the engines went. And nobody knows how accurate the speedometers were at that speed; the readings could be effected by variations in wheel diameters, etc.
Same with the Pennsy T1.
Nobody ever took a modern steam locomotive into the backshop, tuned it within an inch of its life, and put it out on the road with precision speed indicating equipment to find out just how fast it would go. Claims that the T1 was faster than the Milwaukee Road’s Hudsons or vice versa are just that - claims.
Lore has it that one of the Milwaukee Hudsons was shipped to the railroad from Alco via Altoona and was put on the PRR test plant, and turned up in the neighborhood of 560 driving-wheel RPM, certainly within the bounds of reason for drivers that tall. This figures out to around 140 MPH. But whether this test actually took place has not been verified, nor has the claim of 560 RPM. So there we are again.
The record set by the Pennsy back in 19 ought 2 or whenever by the E2 Atlantic was claimed when the train passed two block towers three miles apart in one minute, 27 seconds. But were the towers exactly three miles apart? And were the towers’ clocks precisely reading the same times? And did the operators look at them at the precise times the train’s rear end passed?
The answer to all these questions is that nobody knows. Therefore, the actual speed is still open to question, but the claim of 127 MPH makes for a fun bit of lore.
- Old Timer
I think this is the reason that the “official” speed record belongs to the Old Country. Obviously, any U.S. railroaders who were witness to faster times could not have that time officially recorded and still keep their jobs.
…Pretty much agree with what Old Timer expressed of the subject. I did mention the 127 mph reported of the 7002 E7 Atlantic was an unofficial time reported. And I agree no other we know of is any more official.
Just an added bit. I happen to have the April 2001 Trains on my desk and that issue featured of some of William D Middleton’s favorite photos. With a two page photo of a Milwaukee 4-4-2, Middleton coments: “(They) were built for speed and nothing else. Streamlined by Otto Kuhler and running on 84 inch drivers, they were to me the ultimate steam locomotive as high-speed-machine. In service they cruised at over 100 mph, and were said to be capable of 120.”
As to the question of acceleration, Middleton notes a the start-to-stop average of 66.0 mph for the 13.2 mainline miles between Oconomowoc and Watertown for the Atlantic powered trains.
I think it reasonable to give the Milwaukee’s A’s and F7’s and the Pennsy’s T1’s the title of fastest while actually working in revenue service, but as Old Timer tells the story, the “fastest engine” will never be known.
Jay
Some speeders not yet including on this thread include the Pennsy E-6 Atlantic, which before NY-Washington electrification could regularlly operate at 100 mph in places between Manhattan Transfer and DC, the original Hiawatha Atlantics, and the AT&SF Atlantics, including the power for Death Valley Scotty’s famous LA - Chicago dash.
Error. posted above without reading page 2. Apologies
The Scotty’s Famous LA to Chicago dash… was that the one where a man walked into the railroad and demanded to be taken across the road to chicago as fast as the most stone hearted and lacking of nerve engine crews can take him?
If this is the trip that we both are referring to then I quite thing that for overall trip this might have been one for the record books.
One excerpt I recall was the passengers gave up trying to have a meal in the diner and instead spent the night holding on for dear life as the train hurtled thru arizona.
Another excerpt indicated that the engineer and firemen were selected for thier absolute disregard for caution and thier extreme intimate knowledge of what turns out to be every foot of track they ran over.
Something I wonder if it still exists in today’s railroad climate.
I have spent much of my early years reaching for the 100 mph mark and spent much time at or above it on certain stretches of interstate in this nation. That is fast. But in today’s climate those days are done forever. Also my advancing age prevents me from effectivly controlling a vehicle that fast for a long period of time.
I wonder about what the engine crew must have had to endure…
Cinders being sand blasted into thier faces? Hurricane force winds roaring thru the cab that might be rocking wildy 15 feet above the ground? If not rocking; maybe savagely hunting from one side to the other… how did the crews stay on? Did they have harnesses to keep them tied to the seats? Did they not get exhausted faster and need to be changed out more often?
But in the days of steam with it’s written orders and older method of control the signals time table etc … regular service at 100 or more was truly extrodinary.
I have also been waiting for the modern folk to jump onto this thread with true high speed such as the TGV or the Bullet.
One more thing… the Oil can burn cleanly with greater heat prod
We all know the Mallard recorded the fastest speed, but for regular service it has to be the Milwaukee Hiawathas. [8D]
Ok, Ill support the Milwaukee Hiawathas.
Only because some curves on the line had slow orders restricting speed to 90 mph.
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