OK guys, looking for some input and advice from yard-design experts. It will be a few months before I dive in to actually building the yard but want plenty of time to think it out before-hand.
I’ve got all the mainline sections built and operating (phases 1-3) and now concentrating on mine construction and scenery on phase 3. Next step is to add the yard. I can already tell I am going to be a collector, and will need a lot of room to park locos and trains. Right now I have:
EM-1 2-8-8-2
C&O 2-6-6-2 mallet
(2) 2-8-0 consolidations
(2) 4-8-2 heavy mountains
Three “cabeses”
Alco FAB2 consist
Alco C630
8 car Geo Washington passenger car set - around 9’ long with loco
3 car B&O passenger car set - around 3-1/2’ long with diesel consist
Approx 30 freight cars and coal hoppers
I am not into operations and my railroad is a one-man show. But I want to make use of the available space to stage, store and create trains with minimal use of two-finger movements. I have read John Armstrong’s book so I have a basic understanding, though I need to get it back from Dad next time we visit and read it over again.
Tracks 3-6 are freight car ladder
Tracks 1, 2 and 8 are train-making and staging tracks
Track 7 is a run-around for the freight ladder turnouts
Tracks 11-16 are loco storage
Track 9 is caboose track
Tracks 17-18 are passenger train staging/storage
Track 10, 17 is combination loco run-around and wye
My frank reaction is – too much stuff for not enough useful track. It is annoying having to move a bunch of stuff just to get one engine out, or to tie up the main line in order to make up a long train, such as your passenger train.
I see lots of tracks, but many are short and I suspect the actual fouling points would make them even shorter than they look. A turnout costs too much if all it gives you is just one car, or two cars, storage.
If your passenger cars are fixed consist trains which never change, that is where hidden staging on perhaps another level is really useful. As for the freight cars, I would explore perhaps some of the ideas you see at modular display layouts where the cars are taken off the layout. Having every single wheel on the layout at all times is going to cost you flexibility and fun, I suspect. So do what you can to get some of those wheels off the layout, and that calls for imaginative track planning.
Switch stand location on the ladders is going to be a bear. You said you were not much into operation, right? I guess that means you won’t be switching out cuts or classifying cars. Even so, looks like too many short tracks with too much single purpose trackage. Much easier to critique yours than to do my own. Ha Ha
Some good advice there from folks who know their stuff.
Here’s a few suggestions.
On the group of tracks 2-6, bend them up toward where it says “4A.”
Combine the wye at 10 and 17 with 7. That should give you a longer tail track, probably a good thing.
Add in longer tracks going to the table end on the right between the relocated wye and Track 18. You should have space for that from curving tracks 2-6 upwards as mentioned earlier.
Is it possible to get some space for the engine terminal at the right, off the end of 4A? With your large wheelbase locos, squeezing them into the wye is really gonna limit things and if that was moved to some additional ground (if possible) on the right, things will work much better. Track off the tail of the wye could begin the lead into the loco service area, although you usually want two available (which could be off the right end of the passenger tracks and very handy if you can do it.)
Having the longer tracks added above 17/18 will also allow trains ready and set to go either direction on the main, sometimes a handy thing even if you’re not really conducting operations.
Pls don’t equate operation with planning. Perhaps ask yourself, what are you trying to accomplish with the layout? Also what industries you hoping to model? Answering these questions is critical.
You also might want to read the Kalmbach book about Freight Yards. That is a very valuable book to help establish some order in your yard, and help avoid the spaghetti layout shown above. I too am guilty of having too much track but having an overarching story avoids confused looks on visitors’ faces.
It appears that you’re trying to accomplish too much. I project the above will generate unwanted frustration and confusion.
Thanks for all the quick replies. You guys are stating a lot of the obvious, the question is how to fix it to get the most out of the available space
No I am not planning on cutting cars or ops sessions. And my passenger cars are not likely to be pulled apart very often. So looking mostly at storage/staging, but with capability of doing some switching especially with freight cars.
I already have a reverse loop operating so I can get the big steamers turned around without having to handle them. The wye adds some flexibility but not necessary if it complicates things. Especially since I don’t have enough room to turn much of a train around with it.
I do need tracks to store locos. I was planning a turntable but that takes up a bunch of room and comes with its own challenges.
A specific question for Mike- what do you mean by combining the wye at 10 and 17 with 7?
No I really can’t extend the layout to the right any further.
My railroad is designed more around modeling and scene building, not so much about operations. My main goal for the yard is to get the mainlines clear of stored trains!
Here is a simpler version for discussion. It retains the wye but the ladder run-around is gone. How useful would the run-around be?
The purpose of a yard is to sort cars not store them and get them moving as fast as possible. The easiest way to bring a railroad to a halt is to have trains start backing up waiting for the yard to clear. You don’t need a yard. You need storage for your fixed trains. I think you should seriously consider hidden staging rather then an exposed yard
An obvious solution for storing locomotives is a roundhouse with a turntable. A turntable to negate the need for a wye.
I think the yard will need an arrival track with an escape track in order to get the locomotive out. I think the arrival track should be the longest track, long enough to hold an entire train (track #2). But ideally, it would be closer to where the locomotives are stored.
I finally found the reverse loop on the mainline (brown track under loops) but i don’t see a way to use it without backing a train thru it given the assumption that trains leave the yard going forward (not backed out). Have you considered having both the green and blue loops (lower left) be reverse loops. Have you considered adding a cross-over between the bue and magenta track below the word Viaduct.
considering that there seems to be a preferrence for running trains in one direction, having facing points spurs will be difficult to service. Having a wayfreight go out in one direction and return in the opposite direction, would allow it to service trailing point spurs going out and returning.
staging could be on the mainline on a hidden siding (tunnel). You show a green track with a siding partially hidden in a tunnel. A passenger train could be staged on the siding in the tunnel. (siding may not need to be so long). Or it could be a tripple sidding allowing both passemger trains to be staged in the tunnel. (This could all be part of a reverse loop)
Seems to me that the purpose of a yard should be whatever the owner of the yard wants it to be. He said he’s not much into operations.
There is nothing wrong with a visable yard that does double duty as staging and sorting. Tony Koester published an article recently about the advantages of visable staging.
I would simplify things a little further. Divide into two logical yards - one coming off the main where the “freight” yard does now and one coming off where the passenger train storage is. Maybe make them 4 tracks each.
Because they attach to the main from different directions, you could use them as east bound and went bound staging. When you are done with a train, you can back it back into the track is came from, out you could add an escape track.
In the triangle that gets left empty, how about a turntable for turning locomotices? No roundhouse. I always thought of turning locos as operationally interesting. I think that would fit. You could also use for turning single ended passenger cars if you like.
If you give us some dimensions, I’ll sketch out what I’m talking about.
Pretty much what you did in the simplified trackplan you responded with.
It’s a little different than what I described, which I intended to give you group of tracks so you could circulate trains more easily in both directions. But with limited space, there is justification to simplify favoring one direction if that suits you needs.
This alternative plan seems to do that pretty well.
As expected I have a lot of work to do on this, but that’s why I posted now instead of the day before laying track.
I may go back to the turntable concept for turning the steamers instead of the wye. I added the reverse loop in just because it was quick and easy. A way to turn the steamers without fouling the mainline would be better in the long run.
Yes this will be a combination staging/storage/operations yard, single-ended and with limited space to work with. So a challenge. Going to scratch my head on it for a bit and post an update when I think that I have some of the issues addressed.
Walt,What I see is track overkill that makes no sense. A complete yard redesign using less track is in order.
Since you mention you’re not into operation why not just make a open stagging yard with switches on both ends since you need a engine escape or have a destinated inbound/outbound track?
Off the record and as my personal thought I would redesign the layout with less track.
BTW. C&O/B&O was never merged. The merger came in '87 under CSX.
Come on guys, I’ve been hanging around here long enough that you should know I am foremost a modeller, not an operator. And the layout design intentionally puts priority on scene-building above operations- in the limited footprint that I have without a duckunder, and with continuous running a must. Now I just want to move trains on and off of it in an organized and fun way and looking for constructive help. My only experience with RR yards of any sort was our visit to the Nevada Northern. But we did spend an hour or so in the loco moving cars around before I got to take the throttle on the mainline…
(Yes I know that the two railroads did not merge until after the steam era was long over. But this is freelance, and they ran through the same WVa mountain country, and they both had mainlines that ran through Huntington.)
Some of the comments made are very useful and have me thinking, but the criticism not so much. Yes it would have been a lot easier to lay less track, and skip all the elevation changes, bridges and tunnels, and concentrate on sidings and industries. But that’s not what I wanted. For example the main reason for the elevated double track was to create scenes like these.
OK, enough of that. And I’ll continue to work on the design. To be clear to those that really want to help, my priorities in order of importance:
Before you spend any more time on this, I would suggest you redefine what you really want. A list of engines is really cool, but what you are wanting to hold are trains.
What trains are you wanting to stage?
How long are they?
Are you OK with shoving trains in or out of the yard?
Are you wanting to turn trains?
If the answer to the above is no, why do you want to turn engines? Also remember that you can have a turntable WITHOUT having a roundhouse. A turntable by itself is a very compact way to turn engines. What is the huge space eater is the rougdhouse and service tracks.
Are you going to swap engines between trains (you have one coal train and swap between N&W, C&O and B&O power?
Have you considered hidden or two level storage? Basic storage yard off a lower level, under/behind a smaller switching yard off an upper level?
There are no wrong answers to these questions. I will point out for future consideration, that you are doing this in kinda the reverse order. If you would have done the staging portion first, it might have given you way more options. For your type of operation having 6 long double ended tracks is way more useful than having 12 short stub ended tracks. If you consider staging at the beginning you can more easily work it into the plan. If you build the staging you can alway put a hill over it. Once you build the hill its really a pain to put a staging yard under it. Since the vast majority of modelers rebuild their layouts at some point, this might be something to consider when that time comes.
I want to stage one or more passenger trains, so need a good 8’ length for this. Also a nice long coal train, so maybe another 8’. The rest will probably vary depending on my mood and what I am up to.
Yes I am OK with shoving in/out of the yard. And my trackwork so far has been very good with no problems backing up long trains, even up the hills. But it would be preferable to be able to shove onto the track along the edge to prevent fouling the blue mainline.
Turning whole trains would be nice, but not really feasible without expanding the layout further into the room. And the reverse loop that I have does allow me to turn whole trains. So not a high priority.
I want to turn engines in the yard so that I can reverse direction without fouling the green/blue mainlines. This should be possible and I can go back to planning a turntable for this.
Yes, I do frequently swap engines especially on freight trains. Also fun to double and triple-head them.
The layout is not designed or constructed with multi-level staging in mind. In reality I could expand the layout another 8’ or so (downward, looking at the diagram.) And that would be a much easier way to expand staging. But that area is dedicated to another hobby right now so looking well into the future, and only if railroad expansion becomes the priority.
My suggestion is to eliminate the loco servicing area as it is drawn up and eliminate the wye. That should free up enough space for another track on the passenger side of the yard. You could then put a turntable into that triangle space that is left and probably fit a loco storage track or two off of it. Have you looked at using any “specialized” track? (3 way or curved turnouts) Might gain a little length to the yard tracks.
Despite not having the benefit of building/destroying multiple layouts, I think planning is key. Organizing the layout to ‘tell a story’ is more enjoyable than the sum of multiple parts. Ultimately this is your layout and who are we to question the fun factor.
You took a huge first step in posting the layout. Thanks. Some here look at layouts with a more critical eye than others. Welcome the criticism and embrace it. No one is forcing you to blindly accept what anyone says as gospel.
since you really just want to run trains, the ideal thing for you might be a double ended yard used for holding complete trains. Trains can face different directions and you can run trains as you please. This yard wouldn’t be used to sort cars or storage and you wouldn’t necessarily exchange cars between trains.
trains could also be staged at multiple sidings at different location on your layout to hold trains, including your reverse loop. They don’t all have to be in the same area.
your green siding could hold two trains. There’s a blue siding top right. The reverse section. A siding could be added to your blue track lower left.
