Has anyone experienced shorts on Atlas #8 turnouts? If so, what have you done to address it?
I have four such turnouts and three create a short when a loco touches the frog on my DCC layout. The frog is isolated which I power by putting a wire in the metal loop that then runs to the buss. It’s a short b/c the solid light on my NCE panel flips off and the loco stops. I flipped the points on the turnout but the short still remains. The turnout that works has this same wiring configuration and the loco goes through it flawlessly.
This issue has lasted for weeks. During that time, I have put in a screw in the frog, removed all the wires from the turnout, etc.
If instead of wheels, do you also get the short if you trace the path of the wheels but using a current testing tool such as a light bulb with wire contacts ending in alligator clips? If so then it is a genuine wiring issue. If not, then it is likely a metal wheel which is bridging an important gap.
I am probably the last person on earth who should tackle a wiring question (and maybe this would get more attention in this Forum’s DCC/wiring section) but did you violate Andy Sperandeo’s famous “don’t feed the frogs” rule - track feeders at the points end of these particular turnouts, with gaps at the frog end to avoid violating the rule by accident?
Larry Pucketts wiring book for Kalmbach (which is more DCC-centric than Andy’s out of print wiring book, which in most other ways I prefer for pure understandability - I find Puckett to be nearly incomprehensible as a technical writer, but that’s just me) has a section on wiring power routing turnouts to be DCC friendly. He makes the point that sometimes these changes are not needed but other times they are, in seemingly arbitary ways, so in that sense he anticipates your problems. His steps: isolate the frogs, power the frogs using a mechanism to switch polarity (you have done this but maybe not the way he recommends, which is to use switch throw or machine contacts, or the Frog Juicer), reinstall the points so they are powered independently, and tie the closure rails and points electrically to the stock rails using jumpers. He was writing about old Shinoharas but in some ways those metal frog Atlas turnouts are sort of a combo type.
You can’t do that…the wire from the frog Must go to a selonoid or frog juicer, which in turn changes the polarity of the frog for direction of travel. The frog does not stay the same polarity all the time.
Sounds like You have the frog wired to the buss South rail polarity which is negative - and the top rail North+ polarity when the wheel bridges the frog gap it creates a short because it is a negative- polarity…positive and negative create a dead short. Atlas turnouts are not power routing, both routes after the frog get power all the time…the frog is just insulated. The frog in Your case is the wrong polarity. If You switched the wire to the other buss, it will work for one direction only, meaning straight route. When You switched the points to the divergent route it will short again once the wheels bridge the gaps at the frog…wrong polarity again. You must use a selonoid or frog juicer…there is no way around it.
I don’t believe the turnouts are faulty…it’s how You have it wired.
Do a continuity test with all Your wiring removed to the turnout…one probe on the frog the other on every piece of track on the turnout and You shoud get NO reading. If You do, then You can say You have a faulty turnout at the frog.
This is where diagrammes of what you have is important and useful. Take two different colour sharp markers and draw out the track geometry around the entire turnout, including any metal joiners and gaps. Make sure you include the wire to the bus that you say is powering the frog. Then, simply trace to find where you get a conflict of two opposite phases/polarities meeting to make hard contact with each other, even if it’s through the metal tire of a wheel on rolling stock.
Thanks for your responses. The small metal loop is attached to the turnout. I am not using juicers because the turnout that works gets power from a wire connected to the loop that goes into the buss.
About the turnout that works, that is wired to the same buss of the turnout that doesn’t work. Looking at the turnout further, it appears that the metal is cut cleanly compared to the turnout that has the short. I bet that’s the reason for the short.
I found one of the old threads regarding these turnouts.
The OP just wanted to use the “normal” route through the turnout for the time being. He also had problems with some of his locos stalling before he powered the frog, that was another thread.
The loop is just the standard hole that Atlas has to power the frog, if I am following correctly.
A picture would tell us what we can’t see in those words. In my Atlas curved hole or loop is molded into the bottom of the ties and runs to the frog. If that’s what is cut, I would think there would be no power to the frog, but no short.
Nascar had 2 ball joints fail in one race so it could be a manufacturing problem. But it’s a whole lot easier to get confused working from underneath the layout and connect to the wrong bus. That’s where I’m placing my bet.
How are you controlling the turouts? Tortoise, Ground Throw, Atlas? Besides a juicer, there are other options depending on you choice of switch machine/device.
For now, just try cutting or removing the frog wires. That will leave you with a dead frog but will eliminate these shorts.
You simply cannot do that - connect the loop on the tuirnout to one of the bus wires. The frog needs to CHANGE polarity based on the point position. Connected to one of the bus wires, the train should go through in one direction but cause a short in the other.
All,I have tried everyone’s excellent suggestions. Changing the frog’s polarity does not address the short, nor it does not matter what buss I use for the wire betwen it and the small metal loop on the turnout.
Thanks again. I hope Atlas can address this issue since the gap in the frog on three of the #8 turnouts is not cut well, so I need to get a dremel. I called Atlas about this matter but thought to see if others are experiencing similar issues. Clearly, checking the turnouts before putting them on the layout is necessary.
Here are his pics. The top two are from the working turnout. I don’t see anything that deserves comment
The following are from a non-working turnout
The ties between the two tracks aren’t parallel. That looks like a kink to me. Not the cause of his short though. That blob of solder and be cleaned up with a needle file and some 400 grit sandpaper
The hole is from drilling for a screw. The gap looks like my Atlas turnout, but mine is filled with plastic. The frog appears to be higher than the frog rails, which very end rails of the turnout. Maybe that’s an optical illusion.
You can’t see the other end of the frog, but on mine that insulated area is much longer than on the diverging end of the frog.
He hasn’t corrected my earlier statement and I believe he is using the turnout as a straight piece of track. If that’s true, the frog only needs to be one polarity, yet he says he has tried both buses and still gets a short. Most of us don’t like that idea, but if he is not using the diverging track, it should work.
I would still like to know the results of testing with a meter, as described above. Either the frog is not really isolated or there is some other wiring to the turnout that he doesn’t know or has forgotten about.
If you want the problem fixed, either remove any wires from the frog or - better yet - install an Atlas relay.
I have four single crossings on my HO layout using Atlas # 8 turnouts. At first some locos would stall on the unpowered frogs, or the sound would “stop/start”.
I installed Atlas relays (one relay wired to both turnouts on a single crossover) and they work perfectly!
If you want the problem solved, this is what you need to do.
