hey, kids! what time is it?

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

what watches are used nowadays? must all crewmen use a watch with the same accuracy, or just cond. and engineer?

watches are advertised that use signals from the us naval observatory for automatic calibration…
actually, the calibration happens once every 12 hours… would this feature be acceptable?

my mom used to take her grand-dads watch to the watchmaker weekly for adjustment… he ran steamer freights for the southern from n. orleans to hattiesburg and back, 3x/week until mid-1940s…

does the crew check their time before a run, with a std. clock in the yard?
do local/yard crews check the time? is it more critical for road crews to check the time, as they could pass thru boundaries of several districts (if that is the term) during a run?

with computers, gps, radio and other systems in place, is the time on a crewmans’ wrist as important as it used to be? it seems that the time on a wristwatch would be one piece of the job… it’s always important to know where you are and when you are, but it’s also critical to
watch the road, the load, and listen to voice on the radio… it all has to work or be stopped in time, if you to laugh about it later…

2

Wristwatches, which must have arabic numbers, not roman numerals. Pocket watches are discouraged as the chain is a catch hazzard. Should have military time, ie a 24 clokck if possible. On the PTRA, all crew members must have a accurate timepiece, per our timetable. Allowed 20 second diffrence from a standard clock, our’s is set to the naval observatory also.
I use a Sharp quatrz wristwatch, which has military time inside the arabic numerals.
We have our watches checked at random, last time for me was dec 2002. We are no longer required to carry a watch card, which shows when and where your watch was checked, and who checked it. You can be removed from service if you do not have your watch, even though we no longer work on a scheduled railroad, via time table and track warrants, we are RTC here. But knowing what time it is and when you have to be somewhere or should expect a train to show up is still important.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

3

…The watches that do the automatic calibration by radio surely would be accepted for just about any work or business. The adjustment they make in 12 hrs. or so would be in hundreds of a second or less. I have one of the clocks that have that feature and sure is nice to be able to check one’s watch to it occasionally. Casio has a wristwatch now with that feature and it is looking interesting.

QM

4

the railroad i work for come out with a statement that all we need is a watch that is accurate to 30sec of standard time i have a digital watch with a stop watch feature. they require a second and or a device to read in seconds for the perpose of throwing switches and waiting time. Meaning if you have been given the right to come out of a track to the main in signal territory you must set up signal protection, some places might be 5 min others 6min30sec, and must be done to the second or risk being fired. all watches must be checked once a month on a standard clock.

5

Wabash - I understand the timing, but would you explain further on the signal protection?

I understand the train is coming out of maybe a siding onto the main line - but I got lost after that.

Jen

6

Jenny, I think what Wabash is talking about is establishing block signal protection. We have the 5 min. rule. When we come off of a non signaled track onto signaled territory, like ABS, you look and listen for movement, line the switch and wait 5 min. What you are doing is throwing up the signals at either end of that block, red. The wait is to make sure that if there are any trains or engines in that block, they will have time to clear, or be seen. If there is no conflicting movement, you may proceed into that block and be governed by the rule “initiating movement within a block.” This was off the top of my head. So if there are any inaccuracies that somebody catches, please let me know.
Ken.

7

i follow most of the discussions here… i don’t get the part about lining a switch and waiting for something to happen… doesn’t everyone have a radio…?

8

Ah, Thanx Ken - it was the 5 mins that I was stuck on. Now I understand!

9

I don’t know about all this new high tech stuff, for now, I’ll stick with my old Hamilton pocket watch that used to belong to a conductor on the Pennsy back in the 1940’s. It needs daily adjustment, but what the heck? It’s a piece of history. I’ll put it up against any new electronic watch for the first 12 hours… After that, it needs to be syncronized…
Todd C.

10

Yeah, everybody has radios and a track warrant unless it is 9.13 (I think) cheap CTC, then you enter the ABS limits on verbal authority or signal indication. Still, what if the crew on the approaching train has gone out of their Track Warrant limits or is not listening to the radio close enough or you are joint inside those limits. 5 min. sure beats the alternative…

11

i have some questions about throwing a switch and waiting for feedback:

what if something in the switch hook-up to the dispatcher’s console mucks up? the switch is thrown but there’s a short in the wiring; a connection is broken on the r-o-w; the indicator lamp is blown… what if the dispacher is on the phone with another emergency and wouldn’t see an indicator lamp anyway? what if the room is unattended? everybody needs to ‘wa***heir hands’ sometime, get a soda or whatever people need during a 12-hour shift…

if a location is ‘dark territory’, there should be a direct phone connection at the switchstand…

if a crew violates its track warrant, well, isn’t that punishable as any other violation? how does a crew miss what is being said over the radio? doesn’t every communication require a response? if someone calls and there is no answer, wouldn’t there be repeated calls until a response is forthcoming?

in law enforcement, police dispatchers call every unit periodically to insure everyone’s o.k… lack of a response and everybody is looking for that car and man… maybe that wouldn’t work on r.rs., but it sure beats the alternative, which is the 5 min wait… i think 5 min. heart attack is more like it…

maybe there aren’t enough places with this problem to justify a whole re-structuring of a radio system… but i have an idea it would only take one really bad muck-up involving long trains, or hazardous material or wrecks near a subdivision or hazardous chemical area and everyone’s screaming blood murder, lawsuits, liability, etc.

and there’s always one guy, maybe wih the r.r., local fire-rescue or whatever who says, ‘yeah, it was just a matter of time… this community knew we would see this… of course, the r.r. knew, the state fire marshall knew, but noone could do anything because it’s covered under federal law, and noone can supercede the fra, not even osha…’

conditions described above which are part of a train wreck show-up

12

Being a signal engineer for thirty years, I hope I can shed some light. First, as you all know, a heavy train at speed can take a lot of time and distance to stop.

The signal system is generally designed so that a broken wire, short circuit, or any other failure will cause the signals they control to revert to a stop aspect, the instant the failure occurs.

None of ever wants to make a mistake - and certainly hopes the boss doesn’t catch us when we do. But as you know, it is all so easy for humans to make mistakes.

Now suppose that someone were to erroneously believe he had authority to come out on the main, or that the dispatcher erroneously gave that auhority, when an approaching train is in the next block having entered it on a green. He will then be approaching your block without sufficient time and distance to stop before running the red into your block.

Under the five minute rule, the approaching train will have had time to stop, or at least will have come into the view of the switchman, and will have hopefully stopped before pranging your switch. Now if that red was caused by your train going out onto the block, there is a great possibility of a colision.

If you can get a hold of NTSB accident reports, you will see that almost all accidents are the result of a long chain of unusual events. So the key to effective accident prevention is to deliberately break that chain in as many places as possible. Each part of the signal system, and each rule such as the five minute rule, breaks one link in the long chain of events to an accident. So the more hedges there are between us and the accident, the safer we are.

Hope that helps.

Have a Happy!
RmC

13

Hey there Cabforward,
Gonna try to explain, but from the sound of your post you already made up your mind we’re dummies.
Broken wire or switch. The track is the “wire” it carries the current. Any breaks in the curcit causes the next signal to go red, absolute stop indication. A burned out bulb, or dark signal is to be treated as a absolute stop also. Stop, call the DS, and proceed if allowed, at restricted speed, which is, “at a speed which allows you to stop within one half the visual range of locomotives, cars men equipment or other objects fouling the track”.
Running a red signal gets the engineer 30 days fired, no exceptions, and his license is held for those 30 days. Second time within three years is 90 days, three times within three years hes out. Radios fail, and sometimes there is a lot of traffic on them, and we do miss some comunications. And why is a five minute wait such a big deal? It can take that long to get the train moving, and five minutes isnt too long to wait to make sure another train dosnt come along and wipe me off the face of the planet.
As for train wrecks and such, you stand a better chance of being struck and killed by lightening, or being hit by a car while crossing the street than being hurt in or by a train. Per million miles traveled railroads have a better safty record than any other type or mode of transportation, period. And considering what we do carry, and how much of it there is, you should realize we do a darn good job of it. The only reason train wrecks make the news is because trains are big, and make such pretty pictures. You could take the average tank car, and roll it down a hill, and the odds are it wouldnt leak, they are that tought. Chlorine, LPG, hexaine and hydrocyanatic acid, butane and lots of other really dangerous stuff travels by rail, millions of gallons every day, and every one gets the willies about it being on a train in their neighborhood or city, yet most of you dont seem to have a problem when its driving right beside you on the f

14

Wow, Cab. Alot of good questions and scenarios. I’ll do my best here. First remember that we are talking about ABS. The signals are controlled by track conditions, not a control operator. As far as I know, when a switch is thrown, the control operator has nothing to do with that. The signals will go red at either end of that block, and to an approach at the previous block and so on. Non controlled signals are called intermediates. A red intermediate indication is to stop and proceed at restricted speed unless it has a grade marker. If trains or engines are at restricted speed they must be able to stop within half the range of vision, short of most everything including trains engines and switches improperly lined.
Broken wires will cause the signals at the ends of that block to go red.
Why would there need to be a phone at a switch stand in dark territory? Your track warrant will state if you are joint with anybody else within those limits and if a switch is lined against your movement depending on the boxes that you have checked when copying your warrant (or that are checked if your warrant was mechanically printed at your on duty point).
If a crew goes outside of its authority, there will be heck to pay, I can promise you that, but, it has happened. Usually, barring any odd circumstances, the radio is always answered.
You make the 5 min. wait sound so bad, it is just a safety measure (and very effective) to allow any movement in that block to clear. If a trains speed drops below 10 mph it is considered delayed within a block and must move at restricted speed until its leading wheels pass the next signal in ABS. There is more protection right there.
Cab, I’m not hackin’ on you, and you have some good questions, but, there are rules that you aren’t aware of that are in place to protect against what you are concerned with. We get fed rules every day and we are professionals. Also remember. We are personally liable for willful violations of FRA rule

15

thank you ken… you got it right when you said i am not aware of rules in place and other protective measures, which is why i ask many questions…

the questions i ask are based on what i read… if i read something which is out-of-context or not the full story, i can’t know that… i go with what i am told, not what i would have known if the explanation were complete…

my views on this 5-min wait is, this is not a precision procedure and it is not something that brings an immediate result which can be understood by the crew…
all i have read about coordination of trains emphasizes radio (which i still haven’t read why it won’t fix this situation), trackside signals & cab signals… more recently, computers are becoming messengers to give information about train movements…

with all this technology, a crewman throws a switch and waits a certain time period, after which it is probably o.k. to go ahead because nothing has happened to contradict it… excuse me, but this seems merely hit-or-miss… this procedure seems to have survived because no tragedy has yet come along to make a big stink over it…

but, if you guys say it’s o.k., then it’s o.k… i have not been there, or done that
…and maybe that’s a good thing…

16

Cab,
maybe this will clairfy it some more. Most blocks are only a few miles long. 5 minutes at track speed is plenty to allow a train within that block to get by you.
The signals we are talking about are at either end, facing away from where you are. Whn you line the switch, both signals, at either end go red. No one may enter that block now. You own it till yuo clear the next signal.
There are several diffrent control systems in use. CTC, central traffic control. ABS, absolute block system. RTC, radio traffic control, (which is what my railroad uses)
CTC uses the big screen you are talking about, where every train has a identifier, and the dispatcher know where every train is at, within a few hundred feet. ABS is also displayed, on a big board or a computer screen, but only shows what block is occupied, not by whom, and dosnt indicate which direction they are moving. Time and track warrants take care of joint movements.
RTC is just what its name implies, raidos are used to coridnate train movement and meets. This type of traffic control is rarely used outside of short lines and terminal or belt roads like the PTRA.
But you also have to keep in mind that most crews are very familar with their distric or subdivision. They already know, from experience, what trains to expect, and when to expect them.
A good, old head hogger could make a run with his eyes closed, and probaly tell you exactly where you are by how hard or easy the engines is pulling, and what the grade feels like.
We often have to use the UP main line here, and there is a strech of track in Pasadena where you can stand on the front porch of the motor, and see three block ahead. You can watch the signal aspect change as you enter each block. And the 5 minute rule is diffrent on some roads. The blocks were designed by each railroad to fit their needs and type of train. So on wabash’s road it may be 5 minutes, out on the Santa Fe in the middle of the desert, it may be 2 minutes. Here in the Houston swa

17

thank you for the background… i couldn’t memorize it, but it does sound logical from the outside… redundancy certainly helps, with somebody who knows the r-o-w as well as his home address…

those of us ‘railheads’ with $$ to spend time available might want to sign up for the r.r. cond. training courses… maybe this is crazy, but i think there could be a number of parties who would enroll just to learn more about the r.r. system… they would not sign up for a job after grad… they just want the knowledge that comes out of it…

if i had the $$, i would enroll for the training courses, up to field exercises and the final exam, in the final week… the only difference is, instead of reporting for work with the ‘northern & southern’ branch of the ‘eastern & western’ r.r., i would drive home and wonder how those grads remember all that stuff when they are working ‘live’ with the real deal…

schools supporting the r.r. cond. program would benefit from the added tuition fees…

of course, applicants who only enroll for the knowledge aspects must pass all requirements, just as anyone who wants to r.r. after grad… any thoughts?

18

Most of us dont remember it all either. Thats why the rules require us to carry the rule book with us, every member of a crew must have a copy of the GCOR with them when on duty. That way, when a problem arises, we can look up the answer. All the major roads use the same copy of the GCOR, so there is no confusion. Local timetables can differ, but the rules say if you opperate on another railroads track, you must have a copy of their timetable and local rules, and follow them.
Go ahead and take the courses, knowledge is your best resource. Why quit before the final? The worst that could happen is you dont make it, the best is you end up with a switchmans certificate, no one says you have to sign on with any carrier.
And learning is a on going process, I have only been at it six years, and most days, I still learn something new.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

19

Cab, think about the info that I have given. It is weird to grasp if you do not work with it and that is OK. OK, you have a block say 1 mile long. I want to come out of an industry into that block. A) I have allready got my authority to enter that block. B) If there is annother train moving within those limits, he will also know that he is joint with me within those limits via his Track Warrant. Now, he may be in that block. Now say that all radio contact is cut off (very unlikely) and he is allready within that said block and I want to come out. I will line that switch and wait 5 min. (signals going red at both ends of the block that I am fouling) to see if there are any conflicting movements. If he doesn’t show in 5 min. (plenty of time to clear even at 20mph) I will proceed and line that switch back or not depending on what my warrant states, the other train will know what I’m gonna do by his warrant as well. Now for argument’s sake lets say that the other train’s speed drops below 10mph (in that case 5min. would not allow enough time to clear) he would by governed by the rule “delayed within a block,” which means that he must move at restricted speed until the leading wheels pass the next signal. That means that if I am coming out and he sees me, he must be able to stop short. No excuses. It is a good system and is safe, and somewhat redundant, but, that is good.

20

Ed, I disagree with you on a red signal in ABS. If it is a number plated signal it is a stop and proceed. You may stop and proceed at restricted speed. So you may end up in the same block as annother train. Correct me if I am wrong. I am still young in this industry.
Ken