Flintlock- nice find! If it is a Mantua, they’re definitely well made. One easy way to rule things out is that Mantua/Tyco steamers use the tender to pick up half their power, and a wire runs from the tender frame to one side of the loco’s motor. I’m pretty sure most/a lot of these were sold as unpainted kits, so you might not find a D&H 0-4-0 listed in any Manuta/Tyco catalog.
I have a few of their diesels that have wound up in my hands through various means, usually for free or next to nothing. Mantua/Tyco diesel motor trucks are a pain to service if you need to remove old lube, since they’re riveted together, BUT they run really nicely when cleaned and lubed. They remind me a lot of the American Flyer ALCo/Geep drive, with the motor truck and dual worm gears. 5 Pole motor too, something Lionel, Flyer and Marx never put in their stuff. Tyco’s later ‘Power-Torque’ drive system is a far cry from it.
Did you know that Gilbert’s HO fronteirsman set was supplied by Mantua Tyco? Both the cars and locomotive were uniquely decorated for Gilbert to mimic the larger S gauge set, and they’re quite hard to find. Keep your eyes peeled at the shows…
Most vintage HO uses DC open frame motors, it wasn’t just the O gauge AC stuff. Just be careful, I’ve learned that due to the nature of them, most of these vintage DC motors can have their permenant magnetic fields damaged by removing the armature. So, only do it as a last resort- I’ve played around a little bit with replacing weak Lionel HO magnets with Neodymium magnets, I think it is possible to save a motor this way. I think so far one of my favorite HO mechanisms is probably the Athearn ‘blue box’ drive- it’s very well designed with a level of servicability in mind. I believe a lot of folks use it to repower Lionel postwar HO geeps since they’re a million miles more reliable, and the original chassis has ALCo trucks [swg]
I took a look at that HO engine an hour or so ago and it’s a Mantua, the name’s molded into the tender frame, so there’s no mistaking it. and you nailed it, there IS a wire from the tender to the motor. Very substantial under the hood with a worm drive, I’m very impressed. I am going to ballast the tender so it tracks better, it’s a bit on the light side.
Since I’ve never heard of an HO engine being AC I initially tested the motor with a DC transformer so no problem there. Yeah, after cleaning the innards, wheels, and re-lubing it ran just fine. And don’t worry, I have NO intention of disassembling the motor. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!”
I won’t be running it much anyway, probably just once a year as part of a Christmas table display. Now to get some quality track!
Oh, don’t worry about being banished to a Tyco or “MR” Forum, as far as I’m concerned “Classic Toy Trains” means just that, toy trains, size is immaterial!
Buzzr TV has been running really old episodes of the Price is Right on Saturday mornings. This is the original format version of the show as it ran in prime time hosted by Bill Cullen from the late 50’s into the early 60’s. This was a once a week version that had prizes of a more valuable nature than the regular daytime Price is Right. Several times I’ve seen a Mantua/Tyco train set as one of the prizes up for bid on the show. (I think I’ve seen a switcher set at least once and a Western set pulled by the Jupiter several times.) So, based on where the trains appeared I’d say they thought they were of high quality.
By the way, Don Pardo pronounced it Man Choo Uh. Up here in Ohio we have a town called Man Away, spelled the same. [;)]
Flintlock, I forgot to note but you probably already figured out for yourself when you checked out the guts of your switcher, but the steamers have 5-pole motors too- just a detail I realize I missed. I don’t think these little locos are considered rare or valuable, but are they good? Absolutely!
The tender should have a diecast chassis- the ‘ground wire’ coming from the motor is screwed to it, using the same screw that holds the drawbar to the tender. The frame grounds to the trucks- unlike on an American Flyer engine, you want all the metal wheels on the same side- it’s good not to mix them up [swg]
Is the tender shell plastic or metal? It’s possible that it could be slightly topheavy if the shell’s metal. Either way adding weight low down in the tender sounds like the way to fix it. My 2-6-2’s tender was having a hard time grounding, I made some simple brass wipers for the axles to help improve continuity to the frame and that fixed it.
Fife- I’ve seen a few of those videos, absolutely fantastic! Just the sorta thing that would have blown my mind if I ever got to play with one as a kid. Faller made some things with similar concept, but German! They lean more towards realism- one of my favorite things I saw is a Märklin(?) freight car and some loading platforms that allow you to drive a vehicle onto the freight car, then the train can take it away… bring it back to a loading platform, and you can drive the vehicle right back off!
Becky, older Mantua/Tyco was very well made- starting around the late '60s or early-mid '70s, the tyco brand became mainly cheap stuff. Locomotives equipped with ‘Power-Torque’ drives need a lot of TLC to run well, but can usually be brought back to life if you’re thorough with them. They’re definitely a step down from the older 5-pole worm drive motors, but personally I like them better than the drives Life-Like and Bachmann were using in their (budget) diesels.
Oh, and Do
Ellie, I’ll have to look at that tender again, I’m pretty sure the shell’s plastic. Aside from cleaning the wheels I didn’t look too closely at the tender since I was directing my efforts towards the engine. The tender is a bit of a flyweight compared to the engine.
Flintlock- I wouldn’t be too surprised if the shell is plastic, I think they did make some all diecast but I’d rather plastic- My AF 343 S gauge loco gives me operational headaches with floor layouts because the topheavy diecast tender shell often rocks wildly enough to life the whees up of one rail- it took me a while to figure out why the reverse unit kept tripping without warning despite the wheels & pickup shoes being clean and wiring good.
Becky, I’d certainly agree.
I think the trouble with HO is the intersection between toy trains and scale models becomes more blurred- many HO trains which really feel more like toys than models- but then there’s O and S gauge trains that are true to scale, and realistic. A 3rd-Rail brass model won’t meet any hesitance here, but an HO train is something that doesn’t seem to come up much.
It raises the question “what exactly is the criterea for a classic toy train?” and I think, innevitably, there would still be trains that did not meet all those criterea, which still have a place in the CTT forums. And there would be trains that fit all the critera, yet nobody really considers them classic toy trains or worth discussing here.
I thought that, at the risk of dipping into this gray area, it would be fun and interesting to discuss collecting HO.
That said, could even the most stern, anti-HO enthusiast, who only ever collected in O, S, and Standard, take a good look at something like a Lionel 0365 Minuteman Missile Launcher car and tell you it “didn’t count” even though it’s big brother does [(-D]
(Not my image)
Ellie, whether HO trains are toy trains/scale models are concerned is a non-issue for the club I belong to, the Virginia Train Collectors Association. Since HO’s been around since the late 1930’s we look at them this way:
Do people collect them? Yes.
Do they bring those collectors pleasure and joy? Yes.
Does it matter whether they’re toys or models? No.
End of story.
If we have a meeting program of “Bring in your models of…” no-ones going to moan if anyone brings in HO articles, or anything in any scale for that matter. It’s a big tent as far as we’re concerned.
Most of the guides I have contain at least a cursory overview of Lionel OO and HO. Volume 3 of the TM book Lionel A Collector’s Guide & History is a prime example. This Standard Gauge tome has 5 pages on OO and 4 covering HO.
The Obrien’s series of Collecting Toy Trains books, of which I own copies of volumes 3, 4 and 5, all have extensive listings for Lionel, Marx and American Flyer HO production. Although in the older editions they’re mixed in with the Standard and O Gauge listings rather than having their own chapters.
And Doyle’s Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1900-1942 covers OO very thoroughly. Strangely, while this book goes into great depth to cover the uber-rare 2 7/8 gauge, something most of us will never see outside of a museum, later volumes (1945-1969 and 1970-2000) ignore HO all together.
Doyle had a lot of assistance from the Train Collectors Association when he put those books together, so the fact that HO’s ignored could be an indication of the TCA being “doctrinaire” in the early 2000’s when the books were done and dismissing HO altogether. “If it’s HO it’s not a toy train! Go talk to the NMRA!” Just guessing mind you, although when I visited the TCA museum in Strasburg back in the 90’s I don’t recall seeing any HO articles at all. Maybe they were there but I missed them.
Anyway, when myself and the board of the VTC gave the OK for HO trains being welcomed there was a bit of grumbling from the “Peanut Gallery” over it. Not much, but some.
Oh yeah, 2 and 7/8th inch scale. I’ve been going to train shows and train shops for close to 30 years and have NEVER seen any for sale. Strictly museum stuff.
It’s probably a matter of personal taste more than anything. Good to know there’s resources out there, I would like to learn more about Marx and Flyer HO since I have far less in my collection.
The big news for today is my 0635 is back from the grave! The pilot broke off during an awkward procedure in which I was modifying the other end of the frame. Use brute force with caution, folks! I didn’t think I was being too rough but there’s definitely an obvious weak point there. I have a plan to fix it, using a little reinforcement and some epoxy.
The motor I bought for the job seens to work as good as I could ever hope for. I had to steal a gear from my 0602, which I’ve decided needs some severe assistance in getting back in shape. For now it’s sidelined, but eventually I want to fully re-gear it. The 0635 is really noisy, but the gears seem to be the entirety of the cause. From what I can tell, it was probably always this noisy, and all that racket is probably enough to convince a casual onlooker that it’s all original.
Running quality wise, I think the new motor is a clear upgrade from the original. It can move my 10-car Lionel HO consist with ease, and doesn’t stall out when I drop it down to slow speeds. It can’t crawl quite as good as an Athearn but it certainly can go slower than an original could. All in all feeling really pleased! I need to rebuild the smoke unit again hopefully this is the last time, and I get everything right. For now though, here she is, in action:
The adverisement above illustrates material made by Rivarrossi for Lionel, apparently for 1956 only. The locomotives are a Fairbanks Morse C Line A unit and a Southern Pacific Atlantic type.
Apparently these were three rail AC, probably compatible with Maerklin models from Germany.
I assume that the Lionel models were 12v DC two rail. Note that the illustration shows European hook and loop couplers, at least on the FM unit.
These FM units went on to be manufactured by Mehanoteknika in Slovenia (then part of Yugoslavia) and must have been one of the most produced models of all time.
Some time in the 1990s, (if I recall correctly), I purchased a Proto 1000 model of an FM C-Line unit in Milwaukee Road colours. It cost me $109. I was looking through the dusty corners of the same store and found a pair (power and dummy A unit) of the Mehanoteknika units, on sale for $29. These carried the brand “IHC” but had probably never been near that organisation, having been shipped directly to Australia by organisations unknown.
I think an original Rivarossi model of this type was the first model diesel locomotive I ever saw, some time in the 1950s, in a shop window along with more familiar O gauge models.
Anyway, I spent the $29 and I now have the Mehano and Proto 1000 models sitting next to eachother. They are both in Milwaukee road colours, although those on the Proto unit look more realistic. (See, I managed not to say “more life-like”)…<
M636-
I did a fair bit of reading on Lionel HO, yes it is an advert from when Rivarossi was doing the making. It was actually 1957 when Lionel debuted HO, made by Rivarossi. The FM C-Liner was sold in a few road names to match what was being painted on the O gauge F3s. The models supplied to Lionel were designed for NMRA standard 2-rail DC operation at 0-12v DC.
The exact reason Lionel switched manufacturer after only one year seems to have been something regarding how/when Lionel compensated Rivarossi.
I’ve owned one of the Mehano models marketed by AHM, but traded it away to save some cash on buying other things. It ran ok after a service, but was very noisy.
Flintlock- thank you very much! I’m very proud of my work on this loco thus far. I’m extremely eager to finish the job entirely, but it’s hard to get back to work when all I want to do is watch it run!
I think that on a level setup, with broad curves, it could probably haul as much as 20 cars. I’m not 100% certain, it might be pushing it, but if I get the chance you bet I’m going to try! I haven’t yet hit 20 pieces of HO Lionel/Flyer/Marx rolling stock, but it seems likely that within the year I may get there. In the meantime I have some Mantua/Tyco, Bachmann and Roco rolling stock kicking around which isn’t as interesting to me, but can make the train longer.
Speaking of HO, if anyone hasn’t done so yet check out my thread on the NYSME, in addtion to Dakman’s video of the O gauge layout there’s now his video of the HO layout. VERY impressive!
Well, it’s been a minute since I made another post to the HO thread… but here I am, back at it again!
This time, I’m here to talk track. I believe in one of the photo fun threads somewhere I shared the 0366 Operating Milk Car and its companion, the 0900 Remote Control Operating Platform, which has a built in section of straight track. That said, I don’t think I’ve ever shown any of the other Lionel HO track I own. Today, I shall rectify that injustice! It just so happens, several weeks ago I found two items that have been on my “want” list for a while. That is, an example each of the 0976 Curved Terminal Track and 0988 Curved Track. These two sections are fairly unique as far as I can tell, I don’t think anybody else made something quite like them. These track sections seem to have been the standard affair for any HO train set made from 1961 until the end of HO production in 1966. As opposed to your conventional section of 18" radius curved track, which is approximately 9" long… the 0976 and 0988 are a whopping 18" long! These jumbo-sized curves don’t seem to be shown or listed in the seperate sale section of the HO catalogs, so I presume the only way to get them was in sets.
My goal is ultimately to have at least a full set of these- at twice the length of a normal 18" radius curved section, I need 4 more 0988 curved sections to have a “set’s worth” of curves.
Lionel did also offer conventionally sized 18" radius curves. These were No. 0989 (the terminal section version was 0975). The 0989 and 0975 were cataloged from the dawn of Lionel HO in 1957, through to the end of HO production.
It really is a shame the market didn’t receive Lionel HO as well as it should have. They made, or had made by someone else, a lot of innovative things. I know, no surprise to us right? [:(]
I suspect it was a case of “Too late to the party.” Even the power of the Lionel name didn’t help. And of course it was the era when the people running Lionel didn’t seem to know what to do with the company anyway.
I certainly agree Becky- it’s too bad it wasn’t a success. Most of the “fun stuff” in Lionel HO was the stuff truly made by Lionel Corp, though most of the 0864 series boxcars were made before Lionel started making HO themselves.
All the items made by Rivarossi were detailed, fine scale models, and definitely not toy like at all. Like the prewar scale hudson and scale rolling stock, it had the scale modeler in mind.
The Athearn products are a little less detailed, but maybe less fragile too. Athearn did make the trains to Lionel’s desired paint schemes, they just also sold them under their own name for the most part.
The Lionel products are far more toy-like, but Lionel at least made the effort to only include actual road names on all locomotives and cars (I think the 0050 gang car was the only piece of equipment that said “Lionel Lines” on it) and they all are approximately scale models except for those which had no prototype.
Unfortunately the world just wasn’t ready to accept the play value of O gauge operating cars and accessories in the small scale of HO. This may have been the main reason Lione HO flopped, since apparently in the beginning, their HO products sold well. But the problems with drives that relied on short-lived rubber belts (which didn’t keep well even in storage), and then switching from marketing to scale modelers, to trying to market toy trains in HO definitely must have soured the public’s image of Lionel HO. Flintlock is definitely on the money, at the time Lionel was a mess and in retrospect the switch to making their HO line about “toy quality” instead of &qu
