It’s hardly a secret, but I seem to have been bitten by the HO bug.
Please, hear me out! I’m not talking about just any HO. I’m talking about HO produced by the “big three”: The Lionel Corporation, The AC Gilbert Company, and Louis Marx & Co.
Inspired by Northwoods Flyer’s wonderful thread for prewar American Flyer, I decided I wanted to start a thread for HO (and OO, why not!) that was produced by the notable toy train makes of the pre- and postwar eras.
Looking forwards to seeing some pictures from others!
I’ll start us off with some nice finds I scored on my birthday this year- a Lionel 0566 from 1959, and an American Flyer 433 from 1957.
Both need some work, but have good motors. The 433’s smoke unit still works, and the chugger mechanism looks good too. I need a new steam chest and pilot, though- and a new axle for the tender. Note how much the built quality, design, and materials mirror those of the S-Gauge line.
The Lionel 0566 ‘Texas Special’ ALCo FA is a lovely “miniaturized” version of the 211. Referencing the Greenberg Lionel HO book I was able to check out from the Archive.org library, the style of motor and drive would date this model to 1959- the first year Lionel offered HO that was actually made by the Lionel Corporation. It features an interesting combinartion of worm gear drive, and belt drive. My example (unsurprisingly) is in need of new belts, but the motor still runs. Plans are to replace the original belts with cassette machine belts, since they should outlast an ordinary rubber band. The headlight bulb also is due for replacement.
I agree they still count as classic toy trains- if you look at some of the stuff that Lionel and Flyer were offering, it becomes very clear that for the most part their HO product lines followed in the tradition of their O and S gauge lines, respectively. Lionel’s 1960s HO in many cases directly mirrored products in the O gauge line.
A number of cars used the same loads as O gauge cars (for example, the 0842 TCLX Culvert Pipe Transport Car, or the 0875 Seaboard Missile Flat Car).
(all auction or website pictures, not mine)
On the subject of “mirrored” HO lionel products, Lionel issued an HO equivalent to its famous 6464 series, the 0864 series. A good number of the 6464 paint schemes were done in HO, though a number are 40-footers, rather than being 50-footers like the 6464s. None the less, I’m going to be keeping my eye out because they seem to look just as good in HO as they do in O, albeit much smaller.
I figured I might as well use this thread to offer an update on my HO toy train doings-
My 0566 was unfortunately a bust. I was told that the motor ran, however after a very thorrough cleaning and proper lubrication, the motor would often refuse to start from a standstill- reversing polarity would get it going though. With a freely spinning armature, clean brushes, commutator, and a strong magnet, the only fault I could see was that I had a shot winding. So I had to tear the motor down. I’m going to attempt to re-wind it at some point. Also on the list of 'to-do’s for this loco is sourcing new drive belts. Someone on eBay offers them, as well as reproduction nylon clips and couplers, but golly will you look at those prices! Yikes! I can understand the expense of reproducing plastic parts in presumably very limited demand, but it seems unlikely nobody makes a suitable drive belt that costs pennies per unit. An old Lionel brochure I’ve seen on the web describes them as neoprene O ring drive belts:
However the pulleys have a ‘V’ shaped groove, suggesting that a square cross-section belt might be favorable. I may end up trying both if I can locate them in the right sizes and for minimal expense. The eBay seller gives no dimension other than 3/4" diameter, but I would assume this is the inner diameter as it would make the most sense. I estimate the cross section to be around 1mm, since a typical cassette machine belt fits nicely in the groove. More news as the story develops…
In regards to the Gilbert 433, I am happy to report I found an axle kicking around which will cooperate with the tender. I can’t properly run the loco without the missing steam chest and pilot, but without the shell on it will happily run. It isn’t as silky
I was able to identify and resolve some troubles I had, and can now get the 433 to run with the shell on. I took a short video of it running on the workbench:
The boiler front doesn’t fit very tight, and despite my best efforts it’s run off and I need to figure out where it went. I’m debating lightly glueing it in, we shall see.
Thanks Wayne- I would agree, except I have a flyer pacific that is a lousy smoker- and found that the fiberglass wick had somehow compacted/baked around where the heater element wraps around it, and the change in consistency ruined the proper capilary action. I am curious to see if that is the case with my 433. But you could just as well be right. I am sure that were I to run the switcher on more typical track of its era, the sound of the loco operating would be much less and you’d be able to hear those "choo-choo"s much better.
For better or for worse, I made a visit back to the hobby shop where I got the 433 and 0566. It’s not my favorite place to go but it’s the only train-focused hobby shop anywhere close to me. I regretted not going for a little Lionel 0-6-0 switcher I’d seen in a box of stuff that needed fixing. I hoped maybe it would be less of a disaster than the 0566 turned out to be.
Today my family made a trip out and I got some time in the shop- I hunted around through the used rolling stock this time, hoping to find some appropriate rolling stock to go with my HO toy trains. My determination paid off somewhat, as I did manage to find some Lionel rolling stock hidden amongst the boxes. In total I found 5 pieces of Lionel rollingstock, and one I suspected to be Gilbert, but in the end I only bought 3 cars. Prices weren’t exactly the cheapest, generally I don’t want to pay more than a couple bucks for some old HO cars since that’s what I remember being able to manage back when I was still into HO, and buying stuff at the annual show I go to.
Due to the expense, I had to pass up on buying a boxed Marx F unit. I don’t generally obsess over getting boxes, but it was cool to see and looked decent. Very much had that ‘Marx’ look to it.
I had brought some old HO I had around that I wasn’t in love with, in hopes it might help offset the cost of anything I bought. Well… it did, but just barely- I didn’t end up a
My first proper electric train set was HO. I had a lot of fun with it but being small, it was perhaps a little fragile for me at the time. I have happily transitioned away from the smaller stuff, and mainly work with O and S gauge, and a bit of Standard Gauge. Last year I helped a friend (we volunteer at the same museum) exhibit his HO layout at a small show, and someone dropped a bunch of trains at the layout that needed a home. I discovered there was a nearly complete Lionel HO train set, and I thought it was neat so I laid claim on it. That got my curiosity ticking so I decided to try learning more about it. I always assumed it was cheap stuff that wasn’t worth anyone’s time but it’s actually quite substantial feeling and the Lionel-made items (1959 onwards) use the same decoration techniques as O gauge stuff, so they’re rather charming to me. My first love is still the larger stuff, and I mostly just collect the odd HO item that intruiges me, and/or comes my way for free. I’m still quite young as far as ‘train people’ go, so my fingers are able to work on them ok. That may well change in 30-40 years!
Well, I was meaning to post these but didn’t get to it until now.
While the 0847 is an example of Lionel following the trend of sturdily built, less realistic rollingstock, the HO line began in 1957 with models aimed towards realism and scale modeling, and were more for the adult model railroader than the child. I wouldn’t really conmsider them ‘toy trains’ since nothing about them feels toy like, but Lionel did catalog OO and O gauge items directed at the scale modeler, so perhaps they still have every right to stand beside the rest of the Lionel Line.
These cars are very exciting to me, because they are both rare Lionel by Rivarossi. I felt pretty lucky to be able to find not just one, but two cars. They are identical to cars produced by Rivarossi under their own brand, with the exception of a tiny little Lionel “circle L” logo. The cars even say “Made by Rivarossi” underneath. The cattle car is in quite lovely condition aside from the broken coupler, which is shocking considering how fragile it feels. The gondola is in less nice cosmetic shape, but is fully intact.
If memory serves, Lionel bought HO articles from Athern, Roco, and Rivarossi, so the Athern and Roco pieces are probably ones to keep an eye out for if you’re pursuing Lionel HO.
It’s a dirty job, but someone’s got to do it, right? [;)]
I’ve done some research, Roco actually never made anything for Lionel Corp as far as I can detirmine. Rivarossi and Lionel made a deal for 1957, with the goal to produce quality HO models- the idea was that Rivarossi was well regarded, and their models were both detailed and well made, and Lionel as a brand name had very wide recognition in the US so it was favorable for Rivarossi to sell through them. However some sort of dispute caused the contract to end with 1957, and Lionel approached Athearn to make their trains for 1958. The arrangement worked out that Athearn provided Lionel with trains, however were allowed to sell the exact same trains under the Athearn name (just without the Lionel logo or name). Interestingly the shell for the rectifier was always a Lionel product, even though originally the chassis was made by Athearn.
In 1959 Lionel bought most of the tooling from John English’s HObbyline, and set about coverting over to producing their HO in-house using modified HObbyline tooling. The first Lionel made HO started rolling out in 1959. Lionel no longer needed Athearn to make trains now they had their own tooling, so 1959 was the last year Athearn had a deal with Lionel to make trains. The Lionel Corporation ceased HO production in 1966.
As for “modern” Lionel HO, after MPC took over… I don’t know much about that. I’ve learned what I just said from reading a Greenberg book that I was able to check out of an online library. The information all seems to make sense to me. If there is a more up to date book, though, I’d love to look at it.
If Roco made anything for Lionel, it definitely wasn’t during the postwar era.
It makes sense that Lionel by Rivarossi is the hardest to locate since it was only manufactured for one year. Interestingly, the two Rivarossi made steam locomotives Lionel cataloged (0600 docksider, 0610 consolidation) bear no obvious indication they were sold as Lionel other than the box they came in!
I haven’t had much major news to report to this thread, but the other day (aided by parting with some various items I was less attatched to) I purchased a few new items for the collection. With these latest aquisitions, I can now proudly say I have at least two locomotives made by each of the ‘big three’!
From what I’ve seen of the quality of their HO models, Gilbert, during its heyday, produced the best locomotives of the lot. Lionel locomotives seem to be a mixed bag. Marx models seem to me to reflect their O gauge counterparts in principle- simple, inexpensive, and durable. They may not look as realistic as Gilbert, or feel as premium as Lionel, but they definitely seem like they were excellent bang for the buck.
I wound up purchasing a few cars by mistake (sort of) that weren’t made by the big three- I’ll probably keep them (at least for now) but I won’t focus on them here.
First up, a subject matter I think I want to delve into further at a later date: I purchased a second red Michigan Central gondola! That said, although I haven’t made any rule against buying duplicates yet, I can safely say that while my two gondolas share a number, and markings, that is just about all that is identical between them. Pictured below, at left, is my 0865-250, which dates to 1961. On the right, is my “new” car. According to the old Greenburg guidebook on Lionel HO, there were a significant number of changes made over the course of gondola production between 1959 and the end of production in 1966, and the catalog number for different versions of the car changed many times- but the number on the side of the car only ever matched three catalog numbers: 0862-200, 0865-200, 0865-225, and 0865-250. So, while my second gondola at first glance looked to me like I had bought another 0865-250, according to the guide it is actually an 0865-375, and if I had the original box, it would presumably display this number on the end flaps.
I said I’d feature my new Marx, so here it is… late, as usual [swg]
First up, the Santa Fe A-A lashup. Found these seperately in the same store. They’re not the most flawless examples, but the powered unit runs quite well now. Though the motor gets rather hot after not much run time, even though it’s been properly lubricated. Maybe that’s just normal, it’s survived since the '60s so maybe it’s tougher than I think and it can take a little heat.
These are the gray plastic version, apparently there’s also a version molded with silver plastic. I think the gray might be more common, but I’m really just guessing.
Next up, is an incomplete set- number 74642. The track is missing, and someone inserted two Mantua(?) cars in place of the Union Pacific boxcar and Cities Service tank car that should come with it. While there is a Cities Service tank car in the box, it is not of Marx manufacture. Nonetheless, present is the original box, transformer, powered Rock Island A unit, dummy B unit, Western Maryland gondola, and Rock Island coupula caboose. The caboose is in really nice shape- the ladders are slightly bent out of shape but other than that it’s in as good condition as I could ever ask for.
Today’s breakthrough is that I was working on trying to train my eye to recognize Marx HO pieces on sight… and I remembered that Model Power supposedly bought all the old Marx HO tooling. Looking into the formerly Marx boxcars, at least earlier versions seem to be constructed exactly the same, down to the same trucks, couplers and everything, with decoration and colors being the dead giveaway. Marx boxcars seem to be molded all one color, whereas for the Model Power cars, the frame is usually black- molded into the frame are the lower door guides and four locating tabs (two on each side) that hold the plastic body on the frame. Because Marx cars have the body and frame molded in the same color, this doesn’t stand out, but on the model power cars, especially ones painted in light colors, the black tabs and lower door guide stand out like a sore thumb!
I don’t yet own any of either, but here’s some pictures I found online that show what I’m talking about quite nicely:
Marx boxcar (note the two tabs and lower door guide are the same color as carbody):
Model Power boxcar (note tabs and door guide are now black, not matching the body color):
This doesn’t really seem like a practical method to ID manufacturer, since there are more obvious ones- paint schemes and road names are probably the best, as well as looking for a marx logo (I think these cars should be branded?) on the underside of the car. It is a neat additional tell to have, though. If the frame and shell don’t match in color, it’s probably not original marx.
I’m tempted to pick a car or two up some day, since colors aside they really do seem to be a perfect match. I imagine I
You know, I should come clean and admit I bought an HO engine at the last train show. I was looking for an older piece with hook couplers to pull some Dairylea milk cars I inherited from my late brother-in-law and found one, a 0-4-0 steam switcher that should fill the bill nicely. It’s a heavy little beast, the seller thinks its a Mantua product, I’ll have to look it over with a magnifying glass to see what I can find. I had to do a little cleaning and lubing to wake it up, now it runs fine. NOT what I’m used to, by any means!
I was suprised to find an open-frame motor in there and wondered if it was AC, but no, it’s DC all right. Interestingly, it’s marked “Delaware & Hudson” on the tender.
