Looking at old topo maps around Meadville PA and from Jamestown to Meadville to the Ohio Line the Erie looks like a very crooked route -http://www.wnyprr.com/- as oposed the more or less strait line across the bottom of NY State and Western OH…Did the Erie lose time here as a high speed passenger route and how much slower was the Erie Compared to the Pennsy and the NYC from New York to Chicago or New York to Cleveland
I rode the Lake Cities, Erie-Lackawana, about six months before it was pulled off. This was the last of the through trains and ran via Scranton and not Port Jervis. We left Hoboken about 9PM (diner open and serving) and arrived in Chicago about 4 pm the next afternoon if I remember correctly. Lots of stops but fast running. This works out to about 18 hours, faster than Amtrak’s Lake Shore but two hours slower than the Century and the Broadway or one hour slower than most PRR and NYC NY-Chicago express trains. Some one else can check the Official Guide or the timestables of the period.
The sleeper came off at Youngstown, and the diner at Huntington.
I was looking at the old news paper files in the Jamestown NY Librarys and the Lake Cities was the last train that served Jamestown NY in 1970 something…Now the Station is undergoing retoration as a bus terminal and possible rail in the future…
The Tracks are gone in Youngstown as they were removed 6 years ago but the Station is owned by the county…
All I can say is that somebody up in Conrail had in for the Erie for how could they remove a perfectly good railroad that had plenty of industrial sidings along its route?
The distance on the Erie between Jersey City and Chicago was 998 miles. In 1954 the westbound Erie Limited schedule was 23 hrs and 25 min for an average speed of 42.6 mph. It made up to 59 station stops enroute (18 were conditional stops, i.e. flag or to receive or discharge passengers to or from certain points). The Lake Cities schedule was 21 hrs 40 min, an average of 46 mph. The Lake Cities made 49 intermediate stops of which 15 were conditional.
New York - Chicago was 907 miles on the PRR and 970 miles on the NYC. Westbound the Broaday Limited made the run in 15 hrs and 35 mins for an average speed of 58.2 mph and the 20th Century Limited schedule was 15 hrs 45 mins for an average of 63.9 mph. The Broadway made up to 12 intermediate station stops, of which all with the exception of Pittsburgh were conditional stops. The 20th Century made only two intermediate station stops (Harmon and Englewood in Chicago) both of which were conditional.
Considering the Erie’s longer route and the many enroute stops, the times of its two premier trains was really quite remarkable. They must have run like the proverbial bat out of hell between stops to maintain these schedules.
Mark
Wonder what the end-to-end time could have been with half a dozen stops?
George W. Hilton once opined that one of the wonders of Erie’s main line was that it got from Jersey City to Chicago without hitting any major traffic sources except for Youngstown. On the other hand, passenger traffic held up a little better than on other roads because air service didn’t come to many of the places that Erie did serve until much later, if at all. Hilton also noted that through passengers on Erie were relatively rare, most passengers were to and from the smaller intermediate stops. A limited-stop through train going after the New York-Chicago trade could probably get a 19-20 hour timing but that’s still slower than NYC or PRR and you would still have a connecting service to cross the Hudson River.
The Erie in Akron OH competed with the B&O and the Pennsy RR for passengers…The Pennsy ran a doodlebug up untill the 40s and the B&O quit inthe 1960s but the Erie RR was well patronized by Rubber Excutives going to New York becaue the Airport was so far away in Canton up untill the 70s.
The Erie RR felt that running passeger service was good public relations and built shareholder confindence. The problem was that the ICC did not let them raise fares to cover costs. For whatever reason the Erie RR passenger routes were not included in Amtrak…
The issue of Passeger railroads serving mid sized markets is a intresting one because most airports are controlled by the local goverment and finaced by such. But passengers in smaller markets have to pay higher fares. Today Passengers who fly out of Jamestown NY are subsidized by the Feds Air Subsisdy program…I dont know by how much but if you add up the costs of running airports along the old Erie RR route in small citys like Binghamton,Corning,Jamestown,Youngstown,Akron its probally more then the 200,000 that VT pays Amtrak to run into there state
All of the Erie Lackawanna long distance trains were gone before Amtrak came into existence. All that was left was commuter, which Amtrak did not take part in (Cleveland and Hoboken services).
How did Amtrak Define Commuter? It all seemed rather nebulos as Cleveland Youngstown was Commuter but Chicago-Valprasio and Toledo-Detroit was not even though the distance was the same?
Chicago-Valparaiso was definitely a commuter operation. Amtrak operated it because Conrail was legallly obligated to turn it over to a passenger operator and NICTD (which operates South Shore’s suburban service) was not yet established. Toledo-Detroit was operated as an extension of Chicago-Detroit service.
As a child, I rode roundtrip several times between Corning NY and Cambridge Springs PA. The biggest delay that I can remember in both directions was Hornell for crew change and the addition/subtraction of cars from the consist. That usually took about an hour or sometimes longer if the headend power was changed as well which occurred a couple of times on the eastbound leg.
Poppyl
Hi Poppyl,
I have no idea when you made these trips but my 1954 OG lists only a 10 minute station stop at Hornell for both the Erie Limited and Lake Cities. It doesn’t show any consist changes (sleepers, coaches or diner/lounges) at Hornell but of course head end cars could have been added or dropped off there. It does indicate these two trains either added or dropped off Salmanaca-Jersey City sleepers at Salmanaca. For the westbound Pacific Express it shows a 12 minute stop during which time the Jersey City to Hornell sleeper was cut out. The eastbound Atlantic Express stopped for 15 minutes during which time a Hornell-Jersey City coach was added. Obviously schedules and consist changes both before and after 1954 might well have been different from what I have indicated. By the way Cambridge Springs is listed as a scheduled stop for the Pacific and Atlantic Expresses and a conditional stop for the Lake Cities and Erie Limiteds.
Mark
Thanks for the information, Mark.
My “experiences” were during 57 and 58. I do remember that the delay seemed longer going eastbound and distinctly remember a lot of car shifting and the arrival of different crew members. I guess that posted scheduled times versus real elapsed times were sometimes different.
Poppyl
I’ve interviewed a passenger and freight certified engineer who worked on the Erie and E-L. He said frequent stops killed time and so did single tracks or poor trackage in certain spots.
He frequently ran the Lake Cities or Pheobe Snow between Hornell and Meadville. Whenever they were slowed down, track in many spots was good enough to run 70 to 75 mph, but it was against the regs, so they would just let the yardmaster believe magic happened.
As a general rule, the “crooked” line followed most of the valleys in NW Pa and SW NY and was more level (and I mean consistent) than up and down grades through Ohio.
What helped the Erie’s time is the fly-over track near Cambridge Springs that was the old East-bound track. This was used by all the crack express freight, Cherry Express, etc., and refrigerator freights because it was a better grade than the old Atlantic and Great Western line, which was still used as the West bound.
To the best of my knowledge (feel free to check with the Erie-Lackawanna Historical Society www.erielackhs.com ) commuter service around Cleveland was picked up by Conrail for a time after 1976.
And as one of you mentioned before, E-l passenger service was discontinued in 1970. I would talk to a knowledgable EL guy like Bill Burt, Mike Conner or Steve Timko, but I think the reason Amtrak didn’t pick up any E-L service is because there wasn’t any and by the letter of the law, didn’t have to provide new service.
Also, remember, most of Conrail and Amtrak was made up of former PC men who hated E-L with a passion. (E-L was their only serious competitor for UPS freight)
Best,
Ignatius
Wow, great info & I just gotta jump in real quick. You mentioned my hometown - Salamanca. One of my lazy summer activities as a kid was to ride my bike down to the remains of the EL’s Salamanca yard and try to reconstruct in my mind where structures stood, their function and imagine the buzz of activity that must have occurred there, being a division point as I understand. In Google maps, you can still see the old turntable pit though at ground level it’s hard to discern. The station still stands, a
Hi Yippin,
It’s been mentioned before but is worth repeating that ridership on the Erie’s NY-Chi trains was mostly travelers between intermediate towns and small cities and between those points and either NY or Chicago. Passengers going all the way between NY and Chi were far more likely to chose the faster trains of the PRR or NYC. This resulted in some rather unique sleeper routes on the Erie trains: Chi-Youngstown, Chi-Akron, Chi-Salmanaca, Youngstown-NY, Salmanaca-NY and Hornell-NY.
In both directions the Lake Cities and Erie Limiteds made a 10 min stop at Salmanaca and the Erie even ran a connecting limousine service between there and Bradford. I’m not familiar with that region but I’d guess there were sufficient business travelers from industries or perhaps vacationers in the Salmanaca/Bradford area to warrant the Salmanaca sleepers.
Mark
Just to finish the story for Mark and others, my last roundtrip to Cambridge Springs by rail was early in the Fall of 58. After sitting in Hornell for some time on the way back, my father vowed to drive from then on. Our next trip out was for Thanksgiving and we went by car. On the way back we got snowed in in Northeast for a day and a half. That was it for any trips to Cambridge Springs after November and before April although my grandmother continued to take the train to visit us until she moved to Niagara Falls in 64.
Cambridge Springs was a tremendous place to watch the Erie and later the E-L highball through town day and night. The tracks ran right through the middle of town and my grandmother’s house was less than a couple of hundred feet from the tracks. The whole house shook a little when the eastbound trains barreled by – less so on the westbounds since I believe that there was a slight up grade leading into town from the east.
Poppyl