Hello everone,
I need some help. I am looking for specific information on Illinois Central Passenger trains. The two I am interested in the most is the “City of New Orleans” and the “Panama Limited”.
Thanks in advance
icmr
Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]
It would be helpful to know what TYPE of specific info that you’re looking for. Example: Historical or Current?
Yes be a bit more specific with the timeframe you are looking for and also if you are looking for schedules, equipment, etc. Be glad to glean some info out of my Official Guides.
ed
OK, here’s a tidbit.
In the “Final Days” of private railroad passenger service the IC beat Amtrak to the punch and tried to turn the Panama Limited into a mixed train. The Panama ran overnight between Chicago and New Orleans.
The idea was to put a flexi-van flat on the train carrying premium priced freight. The freight would have left its origin in the afternoon and been delivered the next morning.
A tarriff was filed and preperations were made. Not one load was shipped. Pretty much proving that there was no market for overnight truckload freight service between Chicago and New Orleans.
But you don’t know unless you try.
greyhounds,
Did the Panama handle any mail at that time?
Great idea, alright, but the I.C. may have had a different agenda. By adding one or more FREIGHT cars to The Panama Limited, the train and engine crews would have qualified for freight rate pay wherein 100-miles, not 150-miles, worked constitutes a basic day. This change would have driven the labor costs assigned to this train upwards, undoubtedly pushing its balance sheet further into the red. Increased operating costs would have made a future train off petition easier to justify before an I.C.C. examiner.
But, then, my argument does beg one question. Decades ago I remember seeing plenty of Flexi-Van flats equipped with pass-through steam pipes. Am I correct in assuming that these flats would have qualified as passenger train equipment?
I don’t know. The story was told to me by Al Watkins who was then Director of Intermodal Pricing at the ICG.
Al had worked intermodal on the North Shore, helped set it up on the Erie and came to the IC when the Mop took over the C&EI. Mail didn’t come up in our conversation.
Thanks for the info. To be more specific I am looking for info around the 1960’s when the Green diamond logo was used and the info Im looking for is equipment used on specific dates. Any dates in the green diamond era will be fine.
Thanks again.
Victor
Happy Railroading[swg][swg]
OK, I rode both trains during the period 1967-1970. The City of New Orleans looked like an all-lightweight streamliner, from its E-units (2, usually) up front to the round-end observation that was used at least at the beginning of my riding, but possible dropped toward the end. But if I remember correctly the dining car was a much rebuilt older car, rebuilt to match the lightweights but still on 6-wheel trucks. The train did run solid from Chicago to New Orleans, except cars were added southbound and subtracted northbound for St. Louis, then this became a change-trains connection, and then a bus. Possibly in 1969, the train was discontiniued, and coaches were added to the Panama with a separate train name, “The Magnolia Star.” On occasion, then two diners were used, but also on occasion just one. And sometimes three E’s were on the point. I think there was a combination baggage-RPO car up front and sometimes additional head end equipment, sometimes spoiling the all-streamlined appearance, during the years that the City ran.
The Panama’s diner was similar, and the rest of the train was pretty much lighweight sleepers, up to the change noted above. An exception was from Chicago to Carbondale and return, when a parlor-observation with an interior made to represent the New Orleans French Quarter handled the passengers from Chicago to Chamapaign-Urbana and to Carbondale. This was a blunt-end observation, switched-out southbound and added northbound, a much-rebuilt heavyweight on 6-wheel trucks… Through cars to St. Louis ran from New Orleans, and there were drop sleepers from Chicago for Memphis and even one for Jackson, MS, addedd northbound. Not after the Magnolia Star was established, when the connection was a separate train or bus. I think the Panama also had a baggage-RPO until the mail was switched to trucks in 1968 or 1969.
I think most of
I have a picture of either the City or the Panama Limited, I think the later, that I bought which shows in the consist a loaded Flexi-Van car behind what I think was the IC’s last E6 slant nose units. The picture was taken south of Jackson, MS. There may not have been any freight in the Flexi-Van body or the load might have been mail.
Correction. I rode these trains 1957-1970, not 1967-1970!
I also considered IC passenger service excellent. At the start of the era, near perfect, almost up to AT&SF standards, and still pretty good toward Amtrak.
[quote user=“daveklepper”]
OK, I rode both trains during the period 1967-1970. The City of New Orleans looked like an all-lightweight streamliner, from its E-units (2, usually) up front to the round-end observation that was used at least at the beginning of my riding, but possible dropped toward the end. But if I remember correctly the dining car was a much rebuilt older car, rebuilt to match the lightweights but still on 6-wheel trucks. The train did run solid from Chicago to New Orleans, except cars were added southbound and subtracted northbound for St. Louis, then this became a change-trains connection, and then a bus. Possibly in 1969, the train was discontiniued, and coaches were added to the Panama with a separate train name, “The Magnolia Star.” On occasion, then two diners were used, but also on occasion just one. And sometimes three E’s were on the point. I think there was a combination baggage-RPO car up front and sometimes additional head end equipment, sometimes spoiling the all-streamlined appearance, during the years that the City ran.
The Panama’s diner was similar, and the rest of the train was pretty much lighweight sleepers, up to the change noted above. An exception was from Chicago to Carbondale and return, when a parlor-observation with an interior made to represent the New Orleans French Quarter handled the passengers from Chicago to Chamapaign-Urbana and to Carbondale. This was a blunt-end observation, switched-out southbound and added northbound, a much-rebuilt heavyweight on 6-wheel trucks… Through cars to St. Louis ran from New Orleans, and there were drop sleepers from Chicago for Memphis and even one for Jackson, MS, addedd northbound. Not after the Magnolia Star was established, when the connection was a separate train or bus. I think the Panama also had a baggage-RPO until the mail was switched to trucks in 1968 or 1969.
&nb
Corection to above, the through cars to and from St. Lousi were from and to New Orleans. Otherwise, yes, the Panama was the overnighter, all-Pullman and then just all-1st Class sleeper until the City of New Orleans was discontinued and its coaches added to the Panama as the Magnolia Star. And the City of New Orleans was the all day dawn to dusk train. I rode both a many times, not only on through trips on the Panama from New Orleans to Chicago, but also just down to Chapaign-Urbana and Carbondale, to and from Memphis, Memphis to Chapaign-Urbana, to and from Jackson, New Orleand to Jackson after a connection across the platform from the overnight TP-MP Houston - New Orleans train. Except for the Super Chief and El Cap, one could not find better food, smoother rides, better service, all around excellence on any trains in the USA at the time. Sure, the Merchants Limited was the equal but not any better! (But the track was never as smooth, only in spots.) The Pennsy was just as fast in the Corridor, but could not compair on other accounts. The Broadway and the Centry were fine also, but again the track wasn’t as smooth. Well, yes maybe also the UP City of Los Angeles in the dome diner days, but the food was even better on the IC, and track was rougher on either the Northwestern or later the Milwaukee east of Omaha.
The IC provide a good Chicago - St. Louis service, separately, by the Green Diamond and an overnight train, but the Alton - Gulf Mobile and Ohio route was the bigger carrier, including through equipment to Texas via the MP.
Info from 1954 Official Guide.
CITY of NO - All coach train - Lv Chi 7:50am - Ar NO 12:15am (15min past midnight) - 921 miles - Ave speed 56mph - 22 intermediate stops - Car switching at both Carbondale & Memphis
Consist - Coaches Chi-NO, Coaches St.L-NO (in No.'s 201 & 202 Carbondale St.L), Diner Chi-NO (sometimes two depending on passenger load), Tavern/Lounge/Obs Chi-NO
PANAMA LIMITED - All Pullman train - Lv Chi 5:00pm - Ar NO 9:30am - Ave speed 56mph - 17 intermediate stops - Car switching at Carbondale, Memphis & Jackson
Consist - Slpr Chi-NO (6 Sec, 6 Rmt, 4 DBr), Slpr Chi-NO (10 Rmt, 5 DBr), Slpr Chi-NO (11 Dbr), Slpr Chi-NO (DR, 4 Comp, 4 DBr), Slpr Chi-NO (10 Rmt, 6DBr), Slpr/Obs Chi-NO (DBr, DR, Comp), Slpr* St.L-NO (10 Rmt, 6 DBr), Slpr* St.L-NO (6 Sec, 6 Rmt, 4 DBr), Slpr Chi-Jackson, MS (10 Rmt, 6DBr), Slpr Mem-NO (6 Sec, 6 Rmt, 4 DBr), Parlor Car Chi-Carbondale, Parlor Car Mem-NO, Twin Unit Diner Chi-NO, Buffet/Lounge* StL-NO
*Carried in No’s 205 & 16 Carbondale-St.L
Other Lightweight IC Streamliners at the time were: The City of Miami - Chi & St.L - Florida (every 3rd Day) The Daylight & The Green Diamond Chi-StL, The Land o’Corn Chi-Waterloo, IA
Heavyweight Named Trains Were: The Louisiane Chi-NO, The Southern Express Chi-NO, The Creole NO-Chi, The Chickasaw StL-Mem, The Seminole Chi-Jacksonville, The Night Diamond, Chi-StL, The Hawkeye, Chi-Sioux City, The Irwin S. Cobb, Louisville-Fulton, The Delta Express Mem-Greenville, The Southwestern/Northeastern Limited Shreveport-Meridian
Additionally 5 Big Four (NYC) Chi-Cincy passenger trains including the streamlined James Whitcomb Riley were operated by the IC between Chi-Kankakee (54 miles)
Mark
A couple of more tidbits about ICRR passenger service. The City of NO in the late 40’s and 1950s typically was a 15 car train but would carry up to 20 cars at peak travel times. Also in this time frame both it and the Panama carried only one head end car, a baggage car, no mail or express.
Trains magazine used to publish an annual listing of the fastest trains in the US. For several years after its inauguration the CNO topped the list with IIRC a 114 mph start to stop SCHEDULED speed for the 71 miles between Champaign and Effingham. This was a section of the road thad had in-cab signalling and predated ICC mandated speed limits. The CNO had a speedometer in its observation car and and I have personally seen it pegged at 120mph over this stretch.
Until outlawed in the 1960’s IC coach passengers, like those on all other southern railroads, were racially segregated from Kentucky southward. At Central Station in Chicago the IC employed Passenger Service Reps ostensibly to assist boarding passengers. One of their duties was to direct passengers to various cars based on their destination. Blacks going to points in Kentucky and other southern states were directed to the head end coaches and whites to the rear coaches. Intrastate Illinois passengers could sit anywhere on the train. From Kentucky southward black passengers were not allowed in the observation lounge cars. Dining cars typically had two tables for black diners (across the aisle from each other and closest to the kitchen) which were partioned off from the rest of the seating area.
Mark
The City of New Orleans ran up to the beginning of Amtrak and was operated by Amtrak for a few months until the end of 1971. When coaches were added to the Panama Limited under the Magnolia Star name, the City of New Orleans was not discontinued.
Mark:
That is an interesting comment about the segregation on the IC. In my advanced adult years, I have often wondered if the IC trains were Jim Crow type operations. With so much of their business being Mississippi/Tennesee to Chicago African American business one would have thought the IC would have catered to that business. Of course the realities of the times probably dictated a policy.
In looking at the Official Guides of the 50’s it is interesting to note the trains’ services, mainly station stops deep in the South. It would be interesting to know how much of IC’s African American business was handled on the Panama Ltd and City of New Orleans vs other trains.
ed
ed
Very few Blacks rode the Panama Limited probably because it was pretty pricey what with the cost of a first class rail ticket plus the charge for Pullman accomodations. Ridership was largely business travelers and the more affluent passengers. In the 1960’s and prior there were relatively few Blacks in the southern states served by the Panama that fit into either category. On the other hand I’d estimate ridership on the City of NO was about 40% Black north of Carbondale gradually shifting to 60% Black from Memphis southward.
The migration of Blacks from the South in those times resulted in an imbalance of passenger traffic on the IC. This necessitated running one more train north than ran south, The Creole, which ran only northbound. The Creole’s equipment was deadheaded back south and not open to revenue passengers on the Southern Express which was a one coach only mail and express local making all stops from southern Illinois to New Orleans.
When the Creole arrived in Champaign it was largely filled with Black riders from the south. Its early evening departure made it a popular train for Champaign passengers and several coaches and a diner were added there for the trip to Chicago. As a Uof I student in the mid 50’s I often rode the Creole home to Homewood on Friday nights. That old heavyweight diner put out some truly great food. I didn’t always eat a full meal but never failed to have their specialty, hot apple pie which was the best I ever ate topped with either a scoop of vanilla ice cream or a big slice of cheddar cheese. Those pies were baked on the diner in a coal fired stove prior to departing Champaign.
Mark
Mark:
I remember looking at OGs and noticing there was an imbalance of passenger trains. Thanks for the info on why.
While I rode one IC train as a youth, I dont remember it. My aunt lived in Mattoon and her husband worked for the IC there. Thus she had a pass to ride all IC passenger trains at no charge and all others at half price. Her stories of riding the passenger train in the 60’s probably contributed to my interest in trains. She would ride to Chicago every Wed morning with her best friend for lunch and shopping. That was her day off and she would take advantage of pass. Imagine the stories she told me, particularly about the Christmas lights on Michigan Avenue. I would have loved to have gone with her just once.
ed
ed
Your Aunt probably rode the Seminole which left Mattoon at 7:35 in the morning and put her in Central Station at 10:40 in plenty of time for a lunch in Chicago. Return was likely on either the Seminole leaving Chi at 5:10 or possibly the Louisiane which left at 7:45 but didn’t get into Mattoon until the rather late hour of 11:10. Another possibility was the Illini which ran between Chicago and Carbondale. It had been discontinued prior to the 1954 date of my oldest OG. The Illini at one time was a popular train with passengers from southern and central Illinois going to and from Chicago and carried both an IC parlor car and a cafe lounge car though these were probably dropped in the latter years of its operation. For the life of me I can’t remember its schedule but seem to recall it ran north to Chicago in the morning and back to Carbondale in the evening.
Somewhere I recall noting that you live in Valpariso. I remember the days when the PRR ran one or possibly two commuter trains from Valpo to Union Station in the morning and back at night. Also as a boy in the 1940’s we’d often take Sunday afternoon trips over that way and I was always thrilled to see a train headed by one of the Pennsy’s T-1 4-4-4-4’s as we drove down old 4-lane super highway (at the time) US 30 east of Valpo. Recollections such as that will give you a clue to my age which was 74 as of last September.
Mark