Industry spurs / work sidings

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Is it always preferable to branch an industry spur off a siding vs. directly from the mainline? I think I understand the rationale - keeping the mainline free as the spur is worked. On my trackplan, I have both scenarios - some with the siding, some without. I see many published trackplans with a mix - even from those exhibiting “best practices”…

I’m sure there are many prototypes of both situations. I’m currently redoing a section of the layout, weighing the siding options and trying to envision how operations on my layout would be hugely impacted one way or the other.

2

One other advantage of having industry spur(s) coming off a double-ended siding is that the siding can be used as a run-around track, allowing trains running either direction to switch the spur tracks.

If it’s a double track mainline, crossover turnouts will often be set up so that a wayfreight could be occupying one mainline track, and other trains could switch over to the other main to go around them.

Also keep in mind as modellers we tend to like to stick an industry here and an industry there, whereas on the prototype it’s more common to have a couple of industries next to each being served from the same siding or even the same spur track. So if you have say six industries on your layout, it would be more realistic to have say three sidings each serving two industries than to have six separate spurs or sidings each serving just one industry.

3

I suppose in a ‘perfect world’ it would be nice to see all of the industry tracks come off of a siding. The reality is that sometimes there is no choice in getting to an industry except from the mainline. If this is a large industry that will take some time to switch, then having the spurs come off of a dedicated siding or lead so that the main track is not tied up would be a good idea.

Jim

4

Frisco, I think your post is spot on regarding prototype operations. As for how it would affect your operations, are you wanting to know how the prototype handles this? If so I would suggest taking a scanner down to watch some switching like this take place. This is what I am doing, although I realize this is a convenience that may not be available to you. On my layout, I am modeling a very busy CTC controlled single track mainline between Atlanta and Nashville. While I have a lot of swithing on branch lines off of the main, I also have some industries right on the mainline (just as the prototype does) because I want to deal with the operational bottlenecks that this causes. I have gone out and watched what the real guys do and plan on incorporating that into my ops plan. Basically, the local crew gets a track warrant to occupy a block for a certain amount of time so they can switch the industries while tying up the mainline. Meanwhile, the dispatcher is having to hold trains accordingly and in some cases, will actually request that the local clears the main prior to the expiration of the track warrant. One or two trains can then get through and the local can resume switching where they left off. I hope this will become a very enjoyable part of the operation of my layout, although that is a bit down the road since I first need to lay some track [:)] Jamie

5

In the real world, industries go where thjere is an available rr siding (modern) or the railroad went where the industries were (pre WWII).

In our world, we put industries where they fit!![;)]

6

A spur track off a siding is preferred but I have seen industrial spur tracks off of main line tracks were common practice. Nowadays there are fewer of the main line spurs, mainly because of signaling and turnout maintenance to keep a high speed main line switch in good working order because of heavier cars and locomotives.

7

Actually there is a serious flaw in your thinking and its not your fault but,the fault of layout design “experts”…We do that to save space on our layouts.

However,in the real world the serving railroad track ends at the derail and on the dock side of the derail the track is owned by the industry.This is why you see one industry located on a industrial siding.

Now in the few exception there may be several rail served industries on one siding especially if the industry park is located in a former WWII Army supply depot.

However,most industries prefer not to share their track because of lost employee time when the other plant is being switch…After all the switch crew had to move your car.

8

And this is still a common practice today has it was years ago…Signaling,heavier locomotives and cars have nothing to do it with…As far as switch maintenance that’s normal because of the pounding they take from passing trains.

Then how about the heavy steam locomotives? See nothing changed.

9

There’s points for both kinds in real life.

If your an “ops” kind of guy and will need to shuffle a large number of inbounds and outbounds at your industry, then a local siding is your friend. The extra track keeps from fouling the main.

If you are just dropping loads and leaving, and/or just picking up without reshuffling then there’s no point.

At the Hanover food plant in Hanover PA there’s just the spur off the main. But the cars aren’t very active.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=qn1jhb8kn14b&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=9652007&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&ss=yp.Hanover%20foods~pg.1~sst.0&encType=1

Just up the road, the paper plant has a dedicated siding as there is all kinds of shuffling of cars.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=39.872633~-76.868774&style=h&lvl=1

10

If your an “ops” kind of guy and will need to shuffle a large number of inbounds and outbounds at your industry, then a spur is your friend. The extra track keeps from fouling the main.

Why not do like the prototype and work your local around your main line trains?

This is where the best operation “expert” falls flat on their face.They have no common knowledge of how the prototype shuffles their local around or the time spent waiting.Instead they remind me of bass fishermen as they speed across the lake in their bass boats.[:O]

11

Sorry Brakie. My brain was a lil fried when I typed my original post. I went back and corrected it.

For large numbers of shuffles, you want a dedicated local siding with spurs coming off it. NOT a spur off the main.

12

Well it could be my fault. [:I]

But no, I agree, whenever possible (especially with larger businesses / industries) the preferred method would be a double-ended siding with separate spur tracks leading off of it; in larger industries even several spurs for each industry.

But in the case of a small town you might see two on one spur, but both would be small operations that didn’t see a lot of service…maybe start with a ‘house track’ that looped around the depot to form in effect a siding / run-around track ( a set up common on real railroads, but rarely modelled) with a spur goin

13

Stix,I agree industries can be clump together in a small town because the majority of the small cities/towns has a industrial area.Even large industries could be located in that area as you know.

There’s nothing wrong with having a industry located just outside of town or a small industrial park.

Bigger industries that requires a lot of switching usually has the required tracks-a steel mill,large foundry,paper mill,ethanol plant,large industrial parks comes to mind.These may have a small yard to hold inbound cars as well.

I am beginning to wonder if 3-4 large industries that requires heavy switching or perhaps 1 or 2 industrial parks is better then several smaller industries space apart?

I may do a topic on that.

14

I second “the motion.” House tracks serving small towns, usually consisting of a double-ended spur, were typically either behind or in front of the depot. This was where cars for the freight house were set off, and often served as the town’s team track. A livestock loading/unloading pen/corral might also be located on the house track.

I believe they aren’t often modeled because modelers confuse these double-ended spurs for sidings (often called passing sidings) because of their superficial similarity in appearance. Sidings are for the purpose of allowing trains to pass each other; double-ended spurs like a house track are not. If there was only one double-ended track alongside a depot, it was a house track and not a siding. A house track wouldn’t be used for a siding. It was convenient, however, because it could be served from either direction. If there was a siding used for passing, it would be located along the main track on the opposite side of the depot, and would be the length of a normal train. A common track arrangement was depot – house track – main track – siding, leastwise in SP territory.

Mark

15

Quick touchstone to determine the purpose of a track parallel to the main with a turnout at each end - how many cars will it hold?

If it’s longer than the usual mainline train and there are no loading docks or such immediately adjacent, it’s a passing siding.

If it will hold six covered hoppers and there’s a covered loader (with attached grain elevator) over forty feet or so of it, it’s an industrial siding. (‘Spur,’ is usually understood to have one end terminating at a bumper or similar.)

Of course, on a really miniscule layout, a true passing siding may not be able to hold six covered hoppers…

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 2 main tracks at each station)

16

On the prototype, the siding goes off the side that is next to where the industry is located. If the industry owns property off the main the spur comes off the main, if the industry comes off the siding the spur comes off the siding.

On double track, current of traffic territories where trains went in one direction on one main track and the other direction on the other main track, the spurs were organized as trailing point switches for the current of traffic. It was safer (no chance of a derailment on a gapped facing point move) and easier to work (all moves were trailing pooint moves.)

If an area had a tremendous number of spurs, they might build a running track or lead and then put the industry tracks off that lead, but that would be very expensive and mostly found in very dense urban areas.

In a model world if you put the industry tracks off the siding then you still have the main blocked, because you have to leave the locals train on the main in order to keep the siding clear to reach the industry tracks.

17

What about the difference between a siding and other then main track?

[:-^]

18

On double track, current of traffic territories where trains went in one direction on one main track and the other direction on the other main track, the spurs were organized as trailing point switches for the current of traffic. It was safer (no chance of a derailment on a gapped facing point move) and easier to work (all moves were trailing pooint moves.)

This is not always the case since industries are built to fit the needed space and it wouldn’t be uncommon to make a run around move if there was a need.

However,like all things railroads most conductors I worked with would switch such industries on the return trip unless that was our last switch and then we would make the require switch including “turning” our train for the return trip to the yard…

BTW…There is always a chance of derailments during switching moves so a facing point switch is no more dangerous then a trailing switch and switching a facing point switch doesn’t reqiure all that much extra work.The biggest problem is getting the needed track time.

19

Now’s about time for prototype definitions from Paul Mallery’s book Operation Handbook for Model Railroads…

main line: principal route of a railroad or principle route in a particular area.

main track: track running between stations and through yards on which trains are operated by timetable, trains orders, or signals

siding: track auxiliary to main track used for meeting or passing of trains. Also, in a substandard meaning, any track other than main track, secondary track, or yard track.

side track: any track other than main track or secondary track, not usually applied to siding or yard track

spur: undefined

secondary track: track running between stations and through yards on which trains may be operated without train orders, timetables, or signals

controlled siding: siding the use of which is governed by signals

icing track: track used to supply refrigerator cars with ice

receiving track: track normally used to accept an arriving train

rip track: repair track for cars

running track: track through yards kept clear of standing cars

scale track: track for storing cars to be weighed

house track: track serving freight house

team track: public track for loading cars from trucks or wagons or unloading cars to trucks or wagons

yard: assembly of tracks for the purpose of switching, classification, making, breaking up, receiving, or forwarding trains, servicing, storing, loading, or unloading cars

single track: a main or secondary track on which trains move in both directions. Technically any track signalled in both directions is single track but such a track is seldom called single track if there

20

Mark, In railroad speak.

Main line/main track same thing.

siding:Could mean a closed end track off of the main now used for storage…

house track/team track could be the same track if the team was located before or after the freight house.

Today a team track is known as a distribution track.

secondary track:This is also known as a secondary main or sub division off of the main division.Such as the Hobson secondary.We will meet 544 off the Hobson secondary at MP112.5…

Just for fun…Some old line conductors would say:We will meet the Hobson man at MP112.5 After that Man clears we will proceed to work Cloverdales.

spur:That has a wide meaning from industrial siding to a branch line-any track off the main or secondy main.However,in the 9 1/2 years I was a brakeman I never heard “spur” used.