I did some history on this and it seems that the states of PA and NJ paid about 20,000,000 for this line from Scranton PA to NJ from Conrail in 1984. Conrail was still US Gov owned in 1984 so was it not redundent to force the states to pay for track and land the gov already owned?
I’ve often felt that way, why does one hand of government bite the other hand of government by charging them for something. However what we lump together as gummint is actually separate fiefdoms, and in this case you’re talking about the federal government and the separate and sovereign governments of the Commonwealth of Pa and the State of New Jersey.
There are those who would argue that federal money, gleaned from all taxpayers in the US, should not necessarily go to the benefit of only PA and NJ residents. This argument can trickle on for a while, PA general funds should not go to the benefit of only northeast PA residents, or worse yet, New York residents who only want to visit PA, or northeast PA residents who only want to work in New York.
Among the more ridiculous example of that way of thinking:
route 11 light rail trolley, Philadelphia, Pa to the neighboring borough of Darby, was undergoing track reconstruction. A Darby politician complained because all of the proposed track work was being done inside the city of Philla. He apparently did not realize that improved track in the city would improve the ride for entire line.
Delaware River Port Authority, operator of the Port Authority Transist Corp train from NJ to Phila had been paying $1 per year for the privilege of running in the Philadelphia owned Locust St subway. Sometime in the last 10 years some city council person argued, succesfully I think, to raise that fee, or evict PATCO. It’s hard for me to imagine if PATCO had refused and gotten evicted who else would conceivably have paid the raised fee, or who would have used the subway in such a way as to provide the city with benefit similar to that they were getting from the PATCO operation.
Another argument for charging one branch of government regular market fees for goods and services to another branch is actually an argument for promoting financial efficiency. If the fed had given PA and NJ the right of way, or had only charged a dra
Did you mean “Lackawanna”?
It would seem that the Lacawanna Cutoff woudl better serve as a limited Access HOV lane highway to Scranton then a Railroad. Scranton and Laccawanna County is too spread out now and buses could pick people up in the many hill towns and feed into the HOV Lanes. The Laccawanna Cutoff is the only direct route into NJNY via highway or other
Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter in this decade has advocated the restoration of passenger rail service between Scranton and Hoboken, and has secured federal funding for initial steps toward that restoration.
In late July, 2006, New Jersey Transit informed interested parties that the final environmental review has been submitted to the Federal Transit Administration for approval and review.Assuming that the project is approved soon, funding for the project’s construction can be expected to appear in the following fiscal year’s budget.
In addition, the Lackawanna County and Monroe County Railroad Authorities merged in 2006 to form the Pennsylvania Northeast Regional Rail Authority, to help speed-up resumption of passenger service on the Pennsylvania side of the Lackawanna Cutoff project.
Seeing that transit money in PA comes from State Funds unlike many other places that have local tax support…Who pays for opperation of the trains once the line is built?
Wrong facts here. CONRAIL closed, abandoned, and sold the Cut Off in 1984 to a private individual. It was done quickly, before anyone really knew what had happened. NJT, PA and the Federal government had to buy it from the private owner in order to be able to do this project. So it was not a redundency for the governments to buy from CR. It was a very unsettling maneuver by CR to get it sold as quickly and quietly as it did.
I believe the correct term is Lack of Wampum
To add to Henry’s comments, the right of way in New Jersey was offered for sale at a high price. Conrail saw this as an alternate (competitive, if bought by a short line or regional) route between Binghamton and New York City, since they already owned the old New York Central track, and it had more on-line business.
The right of way in New Jersey not bought up or already owned by New Jersey Transit was completely stripped of rail and the property sold as stated above. The right of way in Pennsylvania had one track (of the double track) removed and much is already owned by county Rail Authorities and operated by contractors. The Delaware River bridge at Portland, PA/Columbia, NJ is still there, but needs some work to be brought up to standards, as well as some of the bridges in New Jersey. The gap is about 28 miles between Columbia and Port Morris Junction, NJ
Recently, NJT moved toward the actual construction of a 7.3 mile stretch from Port Morris Junction to Andover. A step closer to the PA border.
Someone else mentioned using the cutoff for a superhighway/HOV lane between Scranton and NYC. Since most of the route is still active, this isn’t in the cards. Besides, we already have Interstate 380 and 80 filling this bill, with HOV lanes as you get close to New York.
It seems that Conrail did a number of things that were not in best public intrest while under Goverment Control such as-
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Abandoning Small Buisness Sidings
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Running Commuter Trains into the ground were SEPTA and Metro North had to step in and take over the service
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Abandoning the Erie west of Youngstown OH.
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Privatising Conrail so that CSX who wined and dined high ranking federal offcials at the Greenbrier for years would eventualy own half of Conrail.
Now when Railpax and Conrail was formed was the original idea to make it healthy enough to spin it off on its own?
and let us not forget that CSX CEO John Snow became the Secatary of the Treasury…No Doubt that that wining and dining at the Greenbriar paid off when some drunk Senator anounced at the Cocktail party to the Crowd that John Snow will be Secatary of the Tresurer
In response:
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A smaller business that ships by rail only occasionally would be better served by trucks.
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The services in question were already subsidized by the transit agencies mentioned. The statute that created Conrail mandated that the suburban operations were to be turned over to the agencies for direct operation.
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The EL main line mentioned was spun off to a regional operator (Erie Westen, IIRC) who couldn’t make a go of it.
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Conrail was privatized in response to an attempt by NS to buy out the whole operation.
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Amtrak and Conrail were established at different times. Conrail did become financially healthy because it was allowed to discontinue unprofitable operations.
Erie Western could not make a go of it because the overhead bridge traffic that normally went over it was diverted to ajantent B&O and Conrail Mainlines. Nowadays Shortlines deals dont go through unless there is a gaurentee of the Class Ones sending still sending traffic over its route.
The other thing to remember about the former Erie, Erie Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley, and DL&W, is that their main lines were dismembered and decimated so that there was no continuous line to compete with the New York Central and Pennsyvlania railroads, er, the Water Level Route and the Central Pennsylvania Route. Along with the dismantling of the respective railroads there was an accomanying decaying of business and industry along those lines. I knoow and chicken and egg contest is coming, but I feel that by taking away the main line, through line railroad service in these cities and towns made if difficult for them to keep exisiting businesses and manufacturing plants while also making it more difficult to attract new ones. To this matter I cannot respect PC nor the PC people who ran CR.
Reply to Eltraino. Superhighway on the Cutoff? So what are those drivers supposed to do when they get near their destination (employment and business spots in NYC and the Hudson West Shore) and there are no parking spots left and congestion? Rail is the answer because it can provide a one-seat ride and get people out of their cars. And the capacity for the additonal trains into Manhattan will be there when the additional tunnels are completed. (There is wasted capacity right now, usable by running all PATH Journal Square trains to Newark (providing uptown as well as downtown service) with the necessary signal, minor track, and operation changes required - like having jocky motorman at Newark and letting the road motorman and conductor walk directly form the inbound to outbound trains while the jockies run out to the relay tracks west of the station and run inbound – and there are other ways, as well.)
Of course the overhead traffic from Conrail went elsewhere. What railroad would intentionally shorthaul itself? This was all prior to Staggers and Conrail would have lost revenue by routing over Erie Western instead of its own lines.
But the problem isn’t only that the overhead traffic left, it is that some left railroads entirely while other just dissapeard because of a lack of service (what may have been a pick up or set out here probably was overhead someplace else!).
The ROW was not offered for a high price to Jerry Turco. IIRC, he got it for a mere $1 million. NJT (not the federal government, who were not involved IINM) bought it from Turco for approximately $21 million.
Conrail’s excuses for abandonment were shallow and meaningless. They keep the Southern Tier Route open despite the lack of business there, for example. Also, publicly admitting to squashing competition should have opened them up to a massive antitrust lawsuit, not to mention that holding such a purported view of the Cutoff actually highlighted its value as a transportation artery rather than denigrated it.
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The right of way in New Jersey not bought up or already owned by New Jersey Transit was completely stripped of rail and the property sold as stated above. The right of way in Pennsylvania had one track (of the double track) removed and much is already owned by county Rail Authorities and operated by contractors. The Delaware River bridge at Portland, PA/Columbia, NJ is still there, but needs some work to be brought up to standards, as well as some of the bridges in New Jersey. The gap is about 28 miles between Columbia and Port Morris J
Here we go again “Wink Wink”[:-^][oX)]… As myself and Eltraino have mentioned earlyer in a on line debate on these forums on Common Carrier Obligation and Eminate Domain the right of a railroad to sell a right of way for use other then railroad purposes is questionable. Portions Right of Ways have been sold to real estate developers and other non railroad developers for quite some time.-- In Buffalo NFTA is selling RR Right of Way that was railbanked from Conrail to strip mall developers because they have given up on any hope of ever that the Subway will ever be expanded. Buffalo NFTA claims that the right of way is still there but does a zig-zag around the Home Depots and Targets Stores so yes legaly its still there but not usable for transit purposes.
Conrail Violated the ICC (Now STB) railbanking laws that relate to rail-trail creation and railbanking that say railroads Right of way must first be offered for sale to 1. Another railroad who will operate the railroad.2 County then State then Municipal Goverments…3 Another Common Carreir Utility (This is what ends up happening the most as Power Line Companys and gas Companys like usiing RR rights of ways for transmision) 4. Whoever was the landowner and there desendents in the deeds when the easement or land was condemed in the 1800s or as late as the 1920s in some cases.
I never stated what price the Land was offered for after the offer to sell as an in-tact railroad right-of-way.It was sold off to break a vital link on a possibly competitive route to Conrail’s former New York Central route. Selling an in-tact route between Binghamton and New York City could easily have given the new owner a way to take through traffic from Conrail between those two cities. It was a sale more to prevent competition. No argument that Turco made out like a bandit on the deal. Both his and Conrail’s decisions on this section of right-of-way were strictly business.