LIRR’s Property Plans: Railroad Wants to Seize Portions of Up to 80 Properties Along Path of Planned Third Track Project
By William Murphy, Newsday, Melville, N.Y.
Jan. 28–The Long Island Rail Road plans to seize portions of up to 80 properties by eminent domain for its Third Track Project along the Main Line Corridor from Hicksville to New Hyde Park, the railroad confirmed last night.
Susan McGowan, a spokeswoman for the railroad, said those areas would be acquired for right-of-way to allow siting of a third track, which is meant to ease congestion on the busy commuter rail line. Only “several feet” of property or easements is contemplated – not seizure of entire lots – for the right-of-way, she said.
In a telephone interview, McGowan confirmed that 27 properties in New Hyde Park, including some homes and businesses, could be seized either wholly or partially in order to eliminate three at-grade crossings in that village.
She would not say how many properties on the Third Track Project’s route east of New Hyde Park might be taken by eminent domain for elimination of at-grade crossings in those jurisdictions.
McGowan’s comments came hours after a crowded meeting in a community center next to New Hyde Park village hall, with people questioning the railroad’s plans and angered by the lack of information about the project.
The total number of 80 properties was included in an LIRR “Project Briefing” plan that was given to village trustees by the LIRR in New Hyde Park last month and was distributed at yesterday’s meeting.
The Third Track Project, affecting an 11.5-mile stretch from Hicksville to Queens Village, includes addition of a third track, elimination of at-grade crossings and renovation of stations. The railroad is supposed to submit a draft environmental impact statement to the Federal Transit Administration in April, with public review of that draft slated from September to December.
Seems like we’re hearing that more and more since the supreme court decision a while back.
It seems hard to believe that LIRR can’t make do with it’s current double track line setup that it has. There are occasional delays (what U.S commuter line doesn’t) but is the benefit truly worth the eminent domain action?
Eminent domain is a fairly old and well-established principle. I was in favor of the plaintiff (homeowner) in the case that went to the Supreme Court because his property would be seized to make room for a (subsidized) corporate campus. A corporation gets a lot of privileges by being treated under law as an individual. Therefore one for-profit concern, IMO, has no business being empowered to strip another of his home. The tit-for-tat was pretty well established when one network TV show asked how Justice Souter would feel if his ancient barn on the home property in New England were to be seized because “not enough use was being made of it.”
I do feel a little more favorably toward eminent domain when it applies to one of the customary reasons for invoking it – and transportation improvement or expansion is one of the bigger reasons. I’ll admit to having a rail bias based in part on a statistic from the UTU I learned long ago: one lane of a double-track RR can move more people than an eight-lane freeway.
People who are concerned should definitely check out LIRR’s rationale for the project. It is probably based upon statistics that presume a certain amount of growth over the next 25-40ish years and the consequent change in traffic patterns, distance of commute, yada yada. Of course, those assumptions may be based on flawed data, or the LIRR may be so consumed with its mission that it doesn’t worrry too much about evid
Actually the double track section in question is home to three branches of the Long Island Rail Road (Oyster Bay, Port Jefferson and the Ronkonkoma). Between Hicksville and New Hyde Park only the Port Jefferson trains stop at the stations in between those two towns. The Oyster Bay and Ronkonkoma trains run express. While most trains run in the peak direction (to New York City in the morning, away in the evening), there is a significant reverse commuting population that justifies more than one train an hour in the reverse commuting direction. Under the current double track condition, the express trains in this stretch of the railroad are getting caught behind local trains because it is difficult for them to pass on the “reverse running” track due to a lot of on coming traffic. By providing an third track, it would give dispatchers and schedule makers more flexiblity to allow express trains to bypass local trains.
After a quick glance at Google Earth on the section of track in question, it does not appear that many buildings and homes would have to be destoryed. Many segments have fields and parallel roads which may be narrowed. Some backyards may become smaller. But for the most part, it looks as if most buildings will not be affected. So i think the railroad can take some property without the need to evict many people, if any. Obviously, have one’s property taken through eminant domain is not a pretty subject but I do understand why the railroad wants to do it. Hopefully a compromise can be work
I happened to be in Long Island the week before that article was published. Local comments were that much of the need for a little bit more ROW was related to power lines and signal lines with some of the needs being as little as 3 to 5 feet.
The Supreme Court didn’t decide whether it was just or not, it said it’s up to the states to decide why and how to take property, as long as there is just compensation.
I found the case amusing because the conservatives who usually are screaming for states rights and less judicial “activism” were irate that the Supreme Court said this is for the states to decide and the liberals who usually want Supreme Court intervention wanted none of it this time.
Guys, you’ve made some very good, compelling points.
BTW: Yes, I’m well aware that eminent domain has been around since just after the country was born.
I should have detailed my answers more. I’m from New York City originally and have gone back to visit a few times. My thinking on the grade crossing issue was that, while it’s likely more expensive, if the line itself could be elevated in those sections.
Another concern is the “so called” fair market value.
Municipal governments acting within their rights attempt to compensate with “fair market value”. But as some of you have likely read, there are cases when the persons involved are over compensated, but there have been many cases listed around the U.S when the opposite is also true. In most of those “short changed” cases, the home owners involved were either poor, illiterate, elderly, and after the compensation they were forced to downgrade their standard of living. Let’s face it; in the New York area today, it’s rare to get a decent home in a decent neighborhood for $50,000. Those days are gone.
Some of you remember the case back in 2004-05, where a New Jersey town was trying to use eminent domain to remove a veteran from a large home he’s owned since just after WWII. The reason? To build condos in order to increase the tax base. The mayor was pushing the case hard. Sorry, but that is indeed abuse. What was just as disheartening to hear was that the money offered to him was approximately 1/3 of his house’s actual fair market value.
Hopefully this particular situation with the LIRR will work out positively for all involved.
Love how the press abuses the process by calling it “seizure”. (Just compensation does not equal “seizure”)…This is a case where most would agree with the use of eminent domain concept for the public good. dldance nailed it on the catenary clearance issue being the main cause for LIRR spilling outside its boundaries (huge space eater, especially in heavy rail applications)…Getting a design plan from concept down to figuring what would be required for “property takes” is no simple process.
Maybe then “journalist” ought to automatically equate to “idiot” in a blanket sense. Bill Murphy’s peers would be a tad upset with him.[V]
I would ask the woman who screamed, “who knew”, how many of the previous public meetings she attended. Having hosted several public information meetings in empty auditoriums where the answers were given and if necessary, explained, I don’t have a lot of sympathy.
And as mc and others have stated, they will be paid fair market value. I’m not sure what the procedure in NY is, but here in Indiana, when the state needs additional highway R/W, they take the average of three independant appraisals. If there is no agreement, they will go up 5-10% on subsequent offers. After the third offer, it goes to court.
Adding a third track to the western portion of the LIRR mainline seems like a really good idea. It’s the throat of an increasingly large funnel. I’m surprised that only 80 properties will be affected.
The fair market value issue can be sticky since the change in market value of a property can be pretty drastic depending on the details.
As always, how the players “spin” the ball, will affect the perception of fairness in the larger goings on.
One of the tools often abused in such takings, is to declare the properties to be taken as “blighted”. When that has happened, it’s a lot easier to strongarm the taking process , under the premise of serving the public good (erasing the uglies)
Of course, once an area has been officially declared “blighted” it makes the cost of acquisition much lower. And one area where this opportunity is often abused is in how liberal the local authority is willing to be in determining what constitutes a blighted area. Some have allowed that a determination of as little as 50% of the homes in an area as blighted can be used to determine that the entire surrounding area qualifies as “blighted” (so much for being the one guy in the neighborhood who maintains his house, you’ll never get that money back if the rusty bridge running through your neighborhood qualifies you as a ‘blighted area’ [}:)] )
In addition, normally, they will not allow you to use the forcast value of what your property would be worth (after the pending improvements) as a means of evaluation, rather you are forced to accept some interpretation of what present market value might be depending upon who is making the determination.
“Just compensation” is a key phrase he. What criteria will be used to determine that?
There have been cases where a civic entity was attempting to aquire private properties for a public work, and the “just compensation” was determined by what the civic entity considered due investigation, which turned out to a check of what individual properties last sold for, even if that last sale was in the 1950’s, they tried this crass lowball tactic because as they stated in the subsequent lawsuit, that to use current real estate market value would have been an “undue burden on the taxpayer”. Needless to say the judge pretty made beat the legal snot out of the entity and made the entities girlfriend hold his coat while doing so…Dont remember if the project ever went forward, I dont think so, ended up spenting all their money in court.
IF the LIRR plans for this accordingly and makes good offers that will allow families to relocate to within the same neighborhoods if they chose to remain, or enough to allow the to make a fresh start elsewhere, then they might be able to avoid a long legal delay while this winds its way thru court. Likely, not a chance IMHO, entities like this always always always try to lowball it, instead of making an offer thats too sweet to refuse, and end up blowing 4 times as much $$ wasting away in court.
The whole Kalmbach crowd knows a few us from meetings we all attend during the year. (Bergie is the only one of the bunch I’ve talked to but never seen)…They know how to find me, LC,Cshaverr,Jeaton plus others fairly easily. Convenient that you left the following rhetorical sentence off trying to spin a different view.
This surveyor can switch from railroad to mortgage/title industry and still growl at the legions of journalists that have a poor grasp on reality or an agenda.
I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, I think grade seperation and triple-tracking is a great idea, but on the other hand, I happen to live sandwiched between construction sites I’ve played in all my life, (they used to be woods) memories from younger years are now trampled by the construction crews.
I don’t know what the right answer is here, (duh) the general population is probobly getting a bad opinon of railroads, killing off quite a few potential railfans.