Manual reverse loop control

i’ll have one reverse loop for some staging tracks that i have to deal with. While i’d like to build my own auto-reverser, i’m considering just manual control using an LED possibly in a tower building at either end and a momentary fascia switch to control a relay to align the reverse section with the mainline at that point on the layout

i mention this because

  • think is a fairly simple approach using parts i have, and
  • this is yet another concept of model RRing that i haven’t read about in magazines or forums.

of course it’s not much different than using a DPDT reversing switch, but it allows control at separate points on the layout

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That would be an extremely interesting building and one that is beyond the electronics skills of most modelers. So, why not go for it? Would your device be an actual auto-reverser or would it simply be a device to indicate polarities inside and outside the reversing section.

Rich

it’s just a latching relay which has separate coils for each position. each fascia switch sets one position.

An LED wired across the gap can indicate if the polarity doesn’t match

is this any more difficult than making sure turnouts are aligned properly?

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Does not need to be a latching relay. A simple 4PDT relay can latch itself and be controlled by push buttons. One normally open button, one normally closed button.

The normally open button energizes the relay, a contact on the relay is used as a holing circuit. The normally closed button lets the relay drop out when pushed.

When i designed relay circuits we were taught to avoid latching relays when possible.

If you have some need to use only N.O. buttons, you can also use two relays like I do with my turnout controls.

I can draw a schematic later.

Sheldon

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I just posted this last nigh tin another thread - an explanation of reverse loop operation. Of course this “worded” as it applies to DC, and DCC allows you to change the polarity under the train. But this might help in some way.

When I was young in this hobby, every 16 year old modeler I knew understood how this worked…

So think of a single track mainline connected by two loops. Your primary reversing switch for the main line should reflect your direction of travel. Then each loop needs its own separate direction switch connected to the throttle “before” the mainline direction switch.

The loops should be marked to match the loop polarity with the position of the turnout entering the loop. In other words let’s call going clockwise around the loop “West” and counter clockwise “East”.

So then you set the turnout to enter clockwise into the loop, and set the loop reverse switch to “West”. The polarity is now correct for the West bound train to enter the loop in the clockwise direction.

Once the train is completely inside the loop, you switch the turnout to let the train re-enter the mainline. And you reverse the mainline direction switch to East - because that is the direction the train will now be traveling.

The train then exits the loop and continues to travel now going East on the mainline.

So more effectively described, the loops are a place to “hold” the train (even if it is moving) while you reverse the direction of the mainline.

For this reason, any scheme to automate this process is full of problems.

One other way to approach this is to wire the loop so it’s polarity is the same as the mainline using a relay or contacts on the switch machine. Using this method the loop will always be the same polarity as the mainline based on the turnout position.

The loop is still isolated, and its polarity changes when you throw the turnout.

So you drive the train into the loop. You cannot change the turnout with the train running, it will stop and go in reverse. But, if you stop the train, reverse the mainline polarity, throw the turnout, you can now restart the train and proceed out of the loop.

Advantage? you don’t have to make sure the loop is preset correctly. Disadvantage? you have to start and stop the train.

In both cases you are reversing the mainline, not really the loop.

You can use this method with a dead end Wye as well, West bound train drives into dead end leg, turnouts switched to exit via leg opposite the one entered from, train moves in reverse now but still West bound out of other leg. Train stops, turnouts set to the direction the train came from. Mainline direction changed - train proceeds forward and has been turned around and mainline direction switch now reflects “East” bound travel.

Sheldon

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how expensive are 4P relays compared to latching relays?

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this doesn’t happen with DCC

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I understand that. At the top of the page I said you can change the polarity under the train with DCC.

In my experience latching relays are always more expensive than conventional relays of the same contact rating.

Sheldon

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No, of course not, but as Sheldon has indicated in the interim, a DPDT would do the same thing.

Why not attempt to build your own auto-reverser with the built in polarity indicator that you are describing?

Rich

I use relays like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/335697124780

Have to go now, more later.

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So you could do that, just link the polarity to the turnout. It would automatically be correct going in or out, and you throw it while the train is in the loop.

Sounds pretty easy to me.

Sheldon

don’t they require 24V for the coils?

the ends of my loop are at opposite ends of a pennisula and i’d like separate controls.

you could wire a pair of dpdt reversing switches in series, but i think a simple push button switch avoids needing to know which position is needs to be in – toggling it if the LED it on

an LED wired across the gaps at each end wouldn’t be part of the reverser.

design/testing/building an AR will take time

They can be bought in different coil voltages.

You can have as many button “stations” as you like. Diagram later.

But linking it to the turnout is even better, I should have thought of that right away.

Really have to go now, more later.

Sheldon

Why not? Two for the price of one. A dual featured electronic device. I love the thought.

And, sure, the design/testing/building of an AR would take time, but therein lies an opportunity to build a better mousetrap, so to speak.

Rich

in my case, there are separate turnouts connecting the reverse section to the mainline.

i prefer to use my time now to build the layout.
i can quickly build the relay circuit with parts at hand

OK

Well than use the push buttons and put a pushbutton station at each location.

EVERYTHING on my layout, every turnout, every cab assigment, is controlled from multiple locations. All the turnouts are controlled at tbe tower panels and on the CTC panel. Every throttle assignment is controlled on two tower panels and the CTC panel.

It is easy.

Sheldon

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I haven’t had any issue with latching relays, and they would make wiring a bit simpler. Just make sure the coils are getting enough voltage to latch reliably.

One downside is that the latching relay can be in an unknown state at the start of operations. One upside of latching relays is they don’t consume power other than at the instant of switching.

i’ve seen them used for controlling tortoise switch motors and it is desirable that they maintain their state between power cycles. turnout feedback can determine the current switch position

The old NJI or Kemtron twin coil switch machines with 3PDT contacts can be used as a latching relay. They can be controlled from as many locations as needed and hold their state when power is off. Also available at low cost. Two poles can power the track and the third can run an indicator LED.
Mark Vinski