The reopening of SPUD caused me to wonder if and how Minneapolis could have a through passenger railroad station again, connecting to both Chicago and points north and west. Looking at the Google earth, it seems the route via the Great Northern depot is gone forever, as is the Milwaukee route west and north. So it looks like Minneapolis could never have a downtown depot again except at phenomenal expense. Best you could do is about 1.5 miles north on Hennepin or Broadway.
Is this true?
If so, are there any other large US cities where this also applies?
I’m not suggesting this should be on anyone’s priority list.
The Detroit (ex-MC/NYC) Amtrak station was abandoned for a new one about 3 miles north of downtown when the route was extended to suburban Pontiac. They are finally going to build a light rail line which will connect the new station to downtown.
For Minneapolis, it seems they should have built a new station before closing Midway.
PRR moved thru trains out of Broad St Station in downtown Phily in favor of 30th St Station years ago. Oakland is about 10 miles from San Francisco, and I have no idea where Emeryville is.
Emeryville is just across the Bay from San Francisco, and is about five miles north of the Jack London Square Station in Oakland.
When Amtrak was carrying LCL materials on the California Zephyr, the train was too long to be handled in Oakland (street crossings would be blocked), so Emeryville became the western terminal for the train.
There is little difference in the bus time to/from Oakland and to/from Emeryville.
Many thanks for these four replies. With respect to Jclass’s point, I was rather assuming that the only sensible route north and west was the NP. Two reasons for this, firstly this gets you to Duluth, a likely end point(via what seems to be the ex GN line?). Secondly, my understanding is that the ex GN to Fargo is not what it was, and would require a very considerable and expensive upgrade to bring it back to passenger standards, though nothing like the cost of recreating the old GN station! So yes, this is a possible but not ideal option. And from Google Earth, the Target Field site looks pretty cramped to me, not suitable for significant expansion. With respect to Minneapolis and the points about Philadelphia and San Francisco, what was behind my question is a hunch that on a medium to long term timescale -20,30 40 years- who knows? I think it quite possible that intercity passenger service will once again be desirable in some US regions. To me, passenger railways make most sense when you have cities with high population densities and large business districts in down town areas. Currently, such US cities often already have commuter rail, in the NE Corridor there is frequent intercity rail too. There is a view that other US cities will go in this direction, reversing in part the historic trend to move people and businesses out to the suburbs, particularly as the population increases. (Richmond Va now has its downtown station back). If so, railways become a good way to access congested downtown areas. If historic rights of way into downtown areas have been lost, this means recreation of passenger rail access become hugely expensive. In other words, with 80-100 years hindsight, decisions which seemed perfectly rational in the 1960s, up to and including the present day might seem questionable. Once a right of way is lost, it cannot be revived. So has Minneapolis potentially shot itself in the foot? and are there similar examples? was really my question. And will Chicago miss Grand Central and Dearborn? and so
Detroit has preserved the ROW from Milwaukee Junction just Northeast of the New Center Amtrak stop that traverses all the way to the riverfront downtown and Detroit could easily build a riverfront station downtown and it could be served by Amtrak…if the city had the funds. There is plenty of space all they need to do is relay the track from Milwaukee Junction to the riverfront. The New Center Amtrak station was only supposed to be temporary but apparently for speed they are going to make it permanent and rely on a streetcar transfer as they used to do at MC Depot.
In regards to MC Depot. The ROW to that is still preserved as well. However, it does not make sense to use that station unless the train is to continue onwards to Windsor, Canada and even then might be shorter to just build a line along the riverfront from a new downtown riverfront station that connects to that tunnel vs trying to revive that MC Station.
30th St. Phillly is not all that inconvenient, with heavy rail rapid transit, light rail rapid trainsit, and frequent commuter trains to the City Hall. Berlin has a new station pretty much in the heart of the City used now by nearly all intercity trains, making connections convenient, and also used by most of the commuter trains (S-Bahn) and, so I understand, one new U-Bahn, subway line. There was an extensive article by David Read in Trains on this station about four or five years ago.
Atlanta has a similar problem. The old stations were at the south end of downtown. Downtown is growing north so a new station needs being built north along the present NS Crescent line. Very important for the time when more routes begin going thru ATL… As well track layout is such that speeds thru Atlanta can be much faster for a station on north side of downtown.
I’ve just recalled that Denver has a wonderfully restored Union Station, only problem is you can’t head south out of it! There looks to be a bridge still extant over Cherry Creek alongside 13th street, just knock down a few undistinguished new buildings and the Pepsi Center and you’re back in business. I would have thought front range services might be useful in time, BNSF/UP don’t have capacity on the Joint Line, but that’s another story.
I agree that the North South Tunnel in Boston was a big miss. This is not a project about a hypothetical future in which inter city passenger trains reappear, but about here and now where there are large and established passenger volumes. The idea is still being talked about, but it seems to me there are significant technical challenges, very complex and possibly corrupt politics involved, and if the Big Dig is anything to go by, astronomical costs. My understanding is that the cost of urban railway tunnelling is not the tunnels themselves, but the underground stations, and the proposal is to build not one but three within a mile and a half of each other!- North, South and Aquarium. Why not go for just one through mega station downtown? NEC terminus in Cambridge? Also, it would require electrification of suburban workings. I think this project is a bit of a bell weather for passenger rail in the Northeast. If it ever does happen it will signal a change from the once dominant view that passenger rail is something we wish/hope will go away to a positive affirmation of its vital importance there.
The old GTW ROW from Milwaukee Junction to the riverfront is now mostly a linear park. The problem with a Detroit station is that it no longer is the end of the line. After the New Center station, at Milwaukee Junction the line turns north to the end of the run in suburban Pontiac. A riverfront station would be on a 3 mile spur.
By my reckoning the current Amtrak station is 2.8 miles from downtown, MC 1.6 and GTW 1.1. I have no idea if/how Detroit will reinvent itself, but it is many decades removed from having a downtown that’s so overbuilt and congested that would benefit from rapid external rail access, I think. If the current Amtrak market is more in the suburbs, the current operation makes a lot of sense. I shared a taxi a few years back ($70!) from Detroit to Windsor, and got the impression that the two communities had little to do with each other, and cross border transport now being so difficult, I can’t ever see fast trains on to Toronto, still less to Buffalo and new York going through there. So, sadly, I don’t think the grand MC station will ever come back to life. Anyone for rebuilding near the new one? (!)
Amtrak should consider using the suburban Fridley Northstar Commuter station. It has easy access to freeways and ample parking. Amtrak could use this station the way Amtrak uses Glenview station in suburban Chicago. The station could easily be adapted for use by Amtrak. Sadly it seems that Amtrak does not wish to expand its presence in the Twin Cities so this will never happen.
Fridley seems like a great idea to me. My guess is that a lot of Amtrak’s ridership long distance ridership base is suburban in the large Metro areas, so a suburban stop (nearer to downtown Minneapolis than SPUD!) makes a lot of sense.
I wonder if Amtrak’s objection is that it would cost a lot of money.
Firstly the platform at Fridley is only 150 yards long, and all trains have to use the western most line.
Secondly there is a plan, I believe to reinstate a third track out to Coon Creek to allow a second platform face at Fridley, but who pays? Lots of shadow boxing, Amtrak staying clear? Gets interested if and when it’s all in place?
Finally, one has to say that the BNSF is in such a mess in this area at the moment that they would (rightly in my view) not wish to accommodate anything else that was even the slightest inconvenience.
I am a retired NP-BN-BNSF Clerk from Northtown with 38 years of service and started with the NP in 1966.
I do not agree with Amtrak’s using the St. Paul Union Depot from a customers point of view. The Midway station had long term parking and the Union Depot does not. In October or November of 2013, I was asked to speak at an Anoka City Council meeting regarding the possibility of asking Amtrak for a stop (regular, conditional, or flag) at Anoka due to the upcoming St. Paul Union Depot opening in 2014. I don’t know what has progressed with that resolution to Amtrak.
Regarding the Fridley North Star station, there are problems with logistically using that facility. It is served on MT2 only. North Star trains use MT2 to Coon Creek, crossing over to MT1.
Going a bit further, I don’t agree with Northern Lights Express commuter, however, I am in flavor of making the Coon Rapids Foley Blvd Park and Ride into a North Star Station. The only catch is that the BNSF would need to install a single crossover (MT2 to MT1) approximately MP 18 in order to serve that station. Otherwise a platform would need to build on MT2 only.
In 2000, I was the clerk to the Terminal Supt David Hanson. He told me that adding a third main track from Coon Creek to Northtown would be too expensive and impossible. Knowing the area, the MT3 would need to start east of the MN610 overpass, bridge Rice Creek, and end before I694. East of 694 is private land and an Anoka County overhead highway bridge (just west of the Diesel Shop and a gaggle of tracks) , which the BN built for Anoka County in 1971 or 1972 due to the fact that the Northtown Yard construction project would close Anoka County Road 2 in Fridley, MN. If you listen to the BNSF’s yard channel you might hear a reference to the “Crooked Bridge” and that is the bridge in question.
Many thanks for this most interesting information. I’d quite forgotten about Northern Lights- as far as I can tell preliminary admin work is being done, but there’s no real traction on the project as yet? This would surely require the three tracking to be done, at whatever cost. The proposed station at Foley Boulevard would as you suggest then surely become the north suburban Minneapolis Amtrak station. As I understand it, there is no planned extension for Northern Lights from Target Field to SPUD, this would be a slow tortuous journey which would increase the amount of stock needed significantly, I would think. The old GN station route would have been much better! So, there will be 0-2 trains per day at SPUD for the foreseeable future. As I understand it, SPUD was part of a politicians’ plan to give Downtown St Paul a lift-I never saw the sense from a ‘Useful Twin Cities train station’ perspective.
Let me go back to the original thought of the post. It has been my opinion since my teenage days of chasing trains that Minneapolis only needed one passenger station and that one was the Great Northern Station. The MILW was very nationalistic and they wanted their own depot in Minneapolis. This was a stub-ended facility that trains needed to back out of. The SOO Line trains to Winnipeg or Portal headed in and backed out to a point where they proceeded westward on the joint NP-MSTL tracks and left the joint trackage at point called 14th Avenue North. Then they were on their own tracks. I only saw one SOO passenger train when I worked an overnight job at NP’s Lower Yard.
It is my opinion that James J. Hill should have established a “Minneapolis Union Depot Company” complete with a coach yard north of the depot (where the CBQ had their coach yard) and serviced all of the trains of the CNW, CBQ, RI, MILW, CGW, etc. Now back to the MILW. As stated above, the MILW was very nationalistic and wanted their own depot. The MILW and RI each had their coach yards in south Minneapolis, about three miles from the depot. So their inbound trains had to back up said three miles, turn on a wye at Lake Street, and back or pull into their respective coach yards. Quite a process!
A press release from the Met Council (which runs Met Transit) has said that the Green Line (Minneapolis to St. Paul) has exceeded ridership expectations. A St. Paul passenger or North Star passenger can transfer from their respective trains to a Blue Line train for a quick ride to the Minneapolis/St. Paul Airport.
We won’t see Northern Lights Express or a third main, but time will tell. The best thing is that the Staples Sub east of Big Lake to two MT CTC, which the former westbound main track being restored within a year or so.
A few questions- off topic really- that you may know the answers to:
Whose bright idea was it to remove the second main between (as far as I can see from Google Earth) Big Lake and Becker? What was the logic?- Was this before or after the decision to focus Fargo traffic on the NP? Was single track plus sidings all the way from Twin Cities to the Pacific seen as the way to go?
With respect to the current congestion on the Fargo Northtown route, my understanding is that terminal capacity constraints at Northtown are actually a bigger problem than main line capacity. Is this correct? If so is it being addressed? (I understand CP are having problems with local politicians about the project to lengthen Pig’s Eye for 10000’ trains, and long trains are adding to congestion around there- all this means Coon Rapids to Hastings is often a nightmare for the Empire Builder)
How did passenger traffic off the CBQ get to Minneapolis GN- I assume this all stopped at SPUD? My historical map of railroads in the area seems to show that northbound traffic could bear left at Merriam Park, and then right alongside the west side of I94, toward the Football stadium, before bearing left over the stone arch bridge, but in the area round the football stadium there is no sign left of any ROW. Was this the route?