I was reading the article in the July Trains, and when I looked at the map - The Twin Cities light rail was missing… The original Mpls to Mall of America line was powered by Flexity Swift cars from Bombardier. The new purchase of cars will be the Siemens S70/Avanto cars. Expansion operation between Mpls and St Paul is scheduled to start on June 14th.
Jim
Definitions of streetcars and light rail must be clarified. NJT’s Newark City Subway original line and extension is on total private right of way but the Broad St. extension runs aside streets and crosses frequently. Likewise the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail uses private rights of way but still utilizes the sides of streets in Jersey City. And the Riverline from Trenton to Camden is mostly private right of way but is alongside the street in Trenton and in the streets south of Rand Transportation center in Camden; also in median of streets in several downtown areas. So, what is a street car and what is light rail? Are they one in the same or only if they are down the middle of the street instead of on their own right of way? To me, they are one in the same if the given line is in the middle or in the side of a street but also has a private right of way.
Charlotte has 20 of those S70s. They must be working out well because Cats just ordered 22 more of them.
The differences between Light rail and street cars can be murky. Many cities that have both types. Often both can and do operate on the same tracks for at least some mileage.
The trains article does give one big distinction. Street car tracks often have tighter curves and use articulated cars to traverse those curves. Light rail cars many times cannot negotiate those curves due to their longer wheel base… Mentioned was Atlanta that is building its street car tracks so that the under construction light rail can use those track when they are finally connected.
IMHO the idea of limited stops for light rail versus street car becomes an express / local type operation where they overlap.
Even the MUing of both types is murky.
More murk, BlueStreak. NJT’s Light Rail systems do 90 degree turns and use articulation,too. Yes, the three systems use station stops rather than street stops. They are not interurban by strict definition but they are still, trolley cars. Except the River Line which is articulated diesels!
There isn’t really a clear dividing line between streetcars and light rail as the earlier postings suggest a lot of overlap, which goes back more years than many of us might think. As an example, consider the operations of Pacific Electric, Red Arrow Lines, Illinois Terminal near St. Louis, etc.
Not as murky but still not that sharp would be the dividing line between light rail and rapid transit.
Charlotte has a street car line actually under construction. The “street cars” they have been testing look very similar to the existing light rail, but the current plan is to use three replica trolleys that have been in inventory since before the light rail opened.
I have to agree that LRV many times is just new politco-speak for street car. The Twin City system uses articulated cars, runs in the streets, along-side the streets, and on private r-o-w(even a tunnel under the MSP International airport).
Jim
The S70s are articulated, and Siemens calls them a low floor tram.
Single car operation even during rush hours: streetcar
multple-unit, train operation frequent light rail
Mostly dedicated separate RoW: light rail
Mostly street operaton streetcar
Enroute to the train show in Timonium, my wife and I were waiting for the light rail in Baltimore. When I saw it I said “Here it comes”. She looked and said “Where”? “Right there”. “Behind that bus stopped at the traffic light”? “That’s not a bus”. “Are you serious? The train has to stop at traffic lights?”…
Dave: noticed that the CLT street cars use trolley poles. The overhead wire is single trolley. Are the street car and light rail not going to run on the same track ?
I did not take that picture. That was taken on the light rail line which was not yet in service. They did briefly run on the same line, but the replica trolleys are now in storage at the CATS light rail maintenance facility. They will not be running on the same tracks when the street car line is completed.
Charlotte had a private trolley museum that restored old trolleys and ran them with a generator on an abandoned NS rail line. The runs were discontinued when that section of ROW became part of the light rail Blue Line. They turned much of their inventory over to CATS. Those two in the picture are not restored, they are modern replicas. Number 85, on the other hand, is the last trolley that ran in Charlotte. It was located and restored by that private museum.
Overhead for use by both poles and pantographs is possible and was typical of Key System.
That is the light rail cat. that the replicas are running under. The restored #85, on the other hand is on the light rail track but is pulling a generator for power because the cat. was not yet electrified.
As a many decade long fan of rail bound city traffic and having lived nearly all of my life in big cities operationg metro systems of all kind I can tell you that there is no safe distinction of them at all. In Frankfurt/Main you will find a tram line that is using articulated 2 car trains running in the middle of the streets, the same goes for Hannover in Germany whilst on the other hand we have a typical light rail line close to where I live now near Vienna, Austria that features long stretches of private right of way with crossbucks and signal lights and sometimes even half bars protecting crosses and yet part of the fleet is made of quite ordinary streetcars that mingle even with diesel powered local freight trains sharing some of their tracks. These streetcars are able to use different voltages, they use tracks of ordinary tram lines with low voltage on the way to downtown within city limits and a higher powered one on their own overland line. Having said this I can think of one criterion that probably could be used for differentiation, thats the operating and top speeds. Normal street cars typically are operation with speeds up to 35 mph (60 kph) while LRV operate on speeds of between 40 and 55 mph, also their stops are further apart and their cars are always bi-directional whereas streetcars used in many cities only have one operator cabin and doors on one side only. Big exception to this is Melbourne where all cars are bi-directional as they don’t use loops at the end of their lines.
The green and yellow trolley cars are not operating under catenary but rather only under trolley wire, a single-conductor system. Catenary is a double-conductor construction which uses a hanging “messenger” wire from which “droppers” are attached to support the trolley wire, and keep it horizontal, thus aiding in keeping the current collector (trolley pole or pantograph) in continuous contact under high speeds… The term “catenary” originally referred to a cable or chain hanging under its own weight. And yes, I do know that the trolley wire in the picture is sagging under its weight but nevertheless that type of construction is not properly termed catenary.
Streetcar systems used only trolley wire from their advent in the 1880s until high speed interurban transport developed in the early years of the 20th century and often employed catenary. In the 1950s I rode high-speed interurban trolley cars (capable of 90mph upwards) operating under (double-conductor) catenary installed circa 1912. SEPTA’s Media and Sharon Hill lines in suburban Philadelphia now operate pantographs under trolley wire but classical trolley wire systems need to have the insulating hangers changed to accomodate pantographs. The picture shows the proper type used to allow pantographs, which as current collectors on RR lines here and abroad normally use catenary (e.g., Amtrak’s NEC). Many new light rail lines unnecessarily use catenary (lacking high speeds) which ups the infrastructure capital cost considerably.
Hopefully the above will be informative (eliminating the confusion of terminology heretofore) and deter any need for a riposte.
The dictionary defintion of a catenary is the shape of wire or rope suspended between two points with the straight line distorted into a sag because of the weight of the wire or rope. Outside of railfan talk, professonals worldwide do use the terms single-wire catenary and messenger-and-contact-wire catenary. I have zero objection to railfans making up their own definitions, but you should be informed about what the profession states the term to mean.
I do agree the messenger catenary has been badly misused, and the worst case is Main Street downtown Buffalo. Absolutely inexcusable. Looks like they were going to run a Deutsches Budensbahn high-speed train under the stuff. Compare that with our beautiful and light single-wire catenary on Jaffa Road In Jerusalem. The North Shore had messenger catenary on the Skokie Valley line, but still ran 80mph north of North Chicago Junction to Milwaukee under simple wire, and with trolley poles and shoes yet! And now, with constant tensioning systems available for both single wire and messenger catenary, lighter construction is achievable with far fewer wire breaks and less pantograph or trolley shoe wear.
Yes, there was only a single wire at the time the picture was taken. As I said, the light rail, on whose tracks they were running, was still under construction and not yet in service. Once the Light rail vehicles were delivered and limited service began, both vehicles ran under the cat. Once the light rail began full service, with 7 minute headways during rush hour, they determined that the trolleys were in the way and trolley service was discontinued.
Guess I never expected to be accused of making up my own definitions, but maybe should have been aware it could happen given the adversarial nature of many posts. (Has the Goose been silenced?)
To support my position that a single trolley-wire system is not properly termed catenary, consider the following extract from Albert S. Richey’s “Electric Railway handbook”, McGraw-Hill, 1924 (2nd ed.), pg. 550: “Overhead trolley construction may be classed as (1) direct suspension, or (2) catenary suspension. Direct suspension comprises construction in which the trolley wires are attached, by suitable devices, to the main supporting system. Catenary suspension comprises construction in which the trolley wires are attached, by suitable devices, to one or more messenger cables which in turn are carried (a) in simple catenary by the main supporting system, or (b) in compound catenary, by secondary messengers which in turn are carried by the main supporting system.”
Enough said.