So I dug through my dad’s old steamer chest in my basement to see what I had in the way of O-Gauge, remembering that my sister got many of them when I took the HO stuff nearly 10 years ago. What I found was a Lionel 2020 & 2020W tender. The tender was in its box, but the engine was in a box marked “3451.” The engine looks to be in decent shape, albeit a bit dirty and lacking some paint around the stack. The tender is pretty dirty and could use a scrub down and perhaps a repaint.
Anyhow, I plan on taking them over to my LHS to see if they can get them running smoothly (I know NOTHING about taking these apart), and I may look into completely refinishing them with new paint and fresh decals. I’m planning on running them, not keeping them as collector items, so I’m not concerned about all the decor being “original.”
My question is this: I’m sure this came as part of a set (my sister probably has the other pieces), but I’d like to try to build a postwar consist with this as the engine and would prefer to keep the cars as accurate as possible. So what cars were originally pulled by this engine? I’m guessing the #3451 log dump car is one…any others?
If nothing else it’ll give me a long-term project to work on and some neat treasures to search for at York in April. Thanks in advance!
PhillyDuke…I have not had a chance to welcome you to the Forum, so [#welcome]
I personally like your idea of taking your Dad’s 2020 S2 Turbine, getting it professionally serviced, conduct a thorough shell cleaning, and replicating/securing the same freight cars that came with the original set.
This link will tell you what year the engine was manufactured. The 2020W whistling tender came with models made in 1946 and 1947. Ask the repair guys if it has a smoke bulb or a smoke element. If the former, you have a 1946. If the latter, you have a 1947.
Hopefully one of the other guys with some reference material will jump in here and tell you what freight cars came with a 2020 set. I don’t have any of these books.
When it comes time to clean the shell, AFTER you have had it serviced, ask for advice here in the Forum. 64 year old paint can be delicate, but you may be pleasantly surprised at how good you can make your Dad’s engine look with just a little patient cleaning. It is not difficult to remove the shell for cleaning or to put it back on.
Every nick and scratch on your engine tells a story about the owner (your Dad) and the times. My steamer has not been repainted.
Re the 3451 box…that may have been the original box for one of the freight cars. A Lionel 3451 was an operating Log Dump car.
Regarding trying to replicate the cars that would have come in a set with your Dad’s 2020 steam engine, check out this web site for the freight car numbers for different sets, by year, headed up by your Dad’s engine. The freight cars are probably available at Ebay or your local train store if they sell used.
In 1946 there were two sets that were headed up by the 2020 and included the operating log dumping car 3451…1417WS and 1421WS.
In 1947 there was only one set…1441WS.
Once you find out whether your engine has a smoke bulb (1946) or a smoke element (1947), you can start hunting for the correct freight consist. It is possible your Dad did not buy a set but acquired the train items ala carte so to speak. Also, back then it was not uncommon for train and hobby shops to pull apart complete sets to get what they needed quickly for a customer.
This brings back memories. The 2020 was the first engine my dad gave me or should I say found while looking in the basement closet when I was about 12. Like most it was only missing the back steps. It was and still is my favorite engine. I found it packed in a old C-Ration box with some box cars and a caboose. I must have dumped tons of money into to keep it running but it’s worth more in sentimental value than Greenburg could put a price on.
FWIW, Williams made a version of this one-off prototype, the PRR S2-100 Turbine. It matches the Lionel postwar size, and as such looks small next to any Scale engines. I measured it, and it is 20" long including the tender. I wonder how long the actual Lionel version is?
Along with what others have said, Greenberg’s price guide lists the 2020 being made in 1946 and again in 1947 thru 49. Maximum value according to Greenberg for a 1947 to 49 loco and tender is $208.00, the max value for the 1946 loco & tender is $222.00.
See what it will cost to have a hobby shop overhaul it, clean and lube it, as you may have sticker shock if you don’t ask for an estimate first!! If you want to hold onto the engine & tender by having it repaired or lubed & cleaned that is up to you. Sometimes sentimental value of an item gets expensive to maintain it in working order.
As somebody else mentioned Williams by Bachmann makes a nice Pennsylvania S-2 steam loco similar to the Lionel 2020, looks more like a post war Lionel 681, but is way less expensive. I bought a Williams S-2 Pennsy steam engine and it runs great, has plenty of power and low end starting power.
Here is a picture of the original. I am a little confused about all the different numbers mentioned. The late 1940s Lionel was 2020. My 2004 Williams is 671, another number, 681 was mentioned and the full scale prototype shown here is 6200. If I were the restoring a Lionel model owned by my father, I would use the original 2020, as that is what the old man saw when he ran it. Just my opinion.
[#welcome] to the forum. Those Lionel turbines were great little engines and still are. I have a 681 which is basically an O gauge version of your 2020 with magnatraction. It is by far my most powerful pulling engine. Postwar engines are easy to take apart to clean and lubricate.
There are three screws that hold the shell on to the chassis. Take the screw out that is on the front of the chassis off first and then the boilerfront should slide off. Once the boilerfront is off you should see a headlight bulb in a socket that is mounted in a clip that should snap off with ease. And then take the two long screws out that are on the back part of the frame and the shell should slide off.
Once you take the shell off you should see your motor in the back an e-unit in the middle and the smoke unit in the front part of the frame. Before you run it there is a hole in the motor’s metal casting, that is an oil resorvoir, make shure you fill it up with oil before you run it. Since your engine doesn’t have magnatraction, there might be a lead weight mounted by two screws over the gear box. Just remove the wieght to reveal the gearbox. Sometimes grease gets hard so make shure you clean the gears before you apply new grease. I hope any of this helps.
Lionel made 4: the 2020, 671, 681, and 682. A buddy of mine has the 671RR which is sitting on my layout as we speak. I know the 6200 designation BobN mentioned appears in a red surround on the boilerplate of the 671RR. The 2020 is unique in that it was the only one of the 4 Lionel releases that had nickel rims on the drivers like the actual prototype photo BobM provided. There were several tenders that were released with these releases.
The real Turbine locomotive had two steam turbines that were directly geared to one of the driving axles, one turbine was for reverse and one was for forward moving. The turbine had no vibrations that normally would tear up tracks at high speeds (such as the massive side rods and reciprocating pistions) so this engine could easily go over 100 mph. It was scrapped because the turbine guzzled down fuel and water at high rates at slower speeds and the turbine was very delicate and hard to maintain. I really wished this locomotive was saved nonetheless because it was my favorite steam locomotive experiment. It made a loud WHOOOSH sound as it went down the tracks.
When you lube any of the turbines or the 726/736, you should lube all the axles with oil and also the side rods on the 726/736 the piston rods. These engines transmit the motor torque through the side rods, and failure to lube them will result in premature wear.
I bought a 736 about a year ago that was locked up solid because the grease had dried out. I haven’t done a serious clean and lube for it yet, but I got it running by using WD-40 to soften the grease. It has been sitting for most of the past year and is still turns free.
Lubing the motor with oil through the oil hole that is between the armature and worm is very important. One of the few motors I have seen worn out was from a turbine, and it had no sign of oil anywhere. The rear bearing was so loose the motor would not run.
I checked a ref. book at work today and found the following info.:
My original set, that I still have.
1947 Set # 1443WS
2020 loco, 2020W tender, 3459 operating ore car, 3462 operating milk car, 2465 Sunoco 2 dome tank car, 2457 lighter Penn N5 caboose, Type S transformer, and track.
1946 Set # 1415 WS
2020 loco, 2020W tender, 3459 operating ore car, 3454 operating merchandise car, 2465 Sunoco 2 dome tank car, 2472 unlit Penn N5 caboose, 1041 transformer and track.
Most of these cars are readily available at reasonible prices.
1449WS = 2020 steam turbine, 6020W tender, 3462 Automatic milk car , 6465 oil car (2 dome), 3459 automatic ore dump car, 6411 flat car, with a load of logs, 6537 illuminated caboose. $65.00.
Since the engine was found with a 3451 box, I’d guess it was the 1447WS set. If anyone asks, I could type in the other parts of the set, xfmr, etc. Both sets were O27. While it is obvious that the “WS” stands for Whistle & Smoke, I am guessing that the 2020 designation relates to the number of wheels on the engine. There are 3 consists involving the 671 in the same catalog, but they are “O” gauge.
I got my answer as to the length of the Lionel model: Catalog says 18 7/8".
Looking at the picture of the 1:1 scale model, and other pictures I have, it appears that the tender has a total if 16 wheels. in an 88 pattern. The Lionel/williams versions have (only) 12 wheels.
PhillyDuke said he is sure his Dad’s 2020 with the 2020W tender were part of a set, his sister probably has the rest, he has the box for the 3451 operating log dump car, and he prefers to keep the cars as accurate as possible. I took that to mean he prefers to keep the cars as accurate as possible to the set his Dad had.
The 2020, 2020W and 3451 were together in a set only for 1946 and 1947. That would mean he is looking only for sets 1417WS and 1421WS for 1946, and 1441WS for 1947.
Only the 1946 2020 engine had a smoke bulb. If he finds his engine has a smoke bulb, he is looking at either set 1417WS or 1421WS. If he has a smoke element, he has a match with set 1441WS.
In another thread someone said you can look down the smoke stack and if the 2020 has a smoke bulb you can see it.
Wow, such great responses all around. Thanks! Yes, I do have the 2020 and 2020W, so I’m looking at a 1946 or 1947 set (my Dad was born in '38, so this makes sense), and the box the engine is in was a 3451 log dump car (which I believe I remember seeing when my sister claimed the rest of the O-Gauge), so I guess I need to nail down the year now.
Unfortunately the O-Gauge service/repairman at Nicholas Smith only works on M-W-F, so I wasn’t able to bring the set by today. I’ll probably drop by on my lunch tomorrow and see if he can at least ID the smoke unit.
As far as repainting goes, there are some areas that definitely lost paint, but as someone mentioned, although the cab reads “2020”, there is a PRR Keystone decal on the front of the engine that reads “6200”. I’ll try to take a few pics and get them posted.
PD…Of the 8 drive wheels, how many have the nickel edges versus plain black? If you look down the smoke stack, can you see what looks like a light bulb? We might be able to determine the engine year without the repair guy.
OK, I was curious so I broke out the 50D to take some pictures. I’m guessing this is a '46, because the smoke unit looks like a bulb with a depression in it to me. Can’t really tell if the drivewheels are nickel or not. The front of the unit looks like it’s seen better days, with lots of what I can only imagine is smoke pellet residue and some corrosion. There are even areas that look completely eaten through. The bulb access door looks like it was forced open/shut a few times, too:
Philly…if you look at each drive wheel, it appears silver on the edge. As you move toward the center of each drive wheel, the color is black. The 1946s had these wheels. But so did all of the 1947 units. But that must be a smoke bulb I see too, making the engine a 1946. Since I am neither a 2020 or smoke bulb expert, I am going to touch base with someone else on the Forum to take a look for us. He’s got a 1946 version. We are getting close. Regarding the boiler, boiler plate, and the steam chest, it does look from the pictures that a simple cleaning won’t do the trick. Same whith the tender shell which is plastic. Not a problem because some guys on the forum have stripped and repainted both the engine and the tender. They know the entire process from stripping and prep all the way to the correct paint, color as well as sheen, the correct numbering process, and other details. The cab on the back appears straight, not bent or chipped. That’s a plus. Let me run down Jim T who I believe refinished his Dad’s 1946 2020 and is currently posting and showing video of his completed refurbishing project. He replaced the smoke bulb with a smoke element because he wanted more smoke…and boy did he get it!
My repair guy prefers the shell left on my steamers when I drop them off to protect everything inside. You may want to wait on the cosmetics until your repair shop is finished with the R&R and the engine is sound operationally. You can go from there on the cosmetics.
