I wonder how much money amtrak could save if it were to convert the NEC electrical system to the standard 60Hz. I would think that not having to maintain all those frequency converters would pay for it after a few years. And I would think that since amtraks AEM-7, HHP-8 and Acelas are dual frequency capable that it would be viable
Any thoughts?
Ungern
I assure you that if Amtrak thought they could save money QUICKLY they would do so immediately. This is one of the many items that Amtrak has included in the 8 BILLION dollars they have estimated required to bring the whole NEC up to (Almost) the standards of European high speed railroads, or “a good state of repair.” The old rotary converters from the 1930’s still soldier on and don’t need much maintenance, any more than old Peter Witt streetcars did and 85-year old ones still ply the streets of Milan as well as (transplanted) San Francisco. Just keep things oiled, replace any carbon brushes and air filters regularly, and the stuff can run for centuries. Take a look at the Manx Electric Railway on the Isle of Man, of the west coast of The UK, where substations and rolling stock are all about 115 years old and still working. Remember in the old days, rule of thumb engineering always included lots of safety factor, lots of copper in the windings, lots of steel in the magent laminations, etc…
Thanks for your comment.
I just thought that the old converters are like my car in that the older it gets the less reliable and harder to repair(i.e. get parts)
ungern
The conversion of Amtrak to 60Hz will be a long and difficult process.
1. Both SEPTA and NJ transit still operate some rolling stock that is not yet 60Hz capable.
2. Some other of SEPTA’s and NJ transit rolling stock will only operate on 12.5 Kv 60Hz or 12Kv 25Hz.
3. PRR signal power is 100Hz 6900V which is converted from the 69Kv 25Hz with a smaller transformer & frequency converter.
4. To get a much better price on electricity PRR installed much equipment in towers, maintenance facilities, and stations to use 25Hz from high voltage transmission lines at various voltages. That was a problem because the transmission lines are single phase. Locations such as Wash, Ivy City, BAL, Wilmington, Bear, PHL, 30th st coach yard, Trenton, Newark, NYP, Sunnyside, etc. Can remember tales of station lights dimming sometimes. Although thru the years much of these locations have been converted to 60Hz local power not all have. Some of the station improvements in the Tiger, ARRA, and current Amtrak budget are for new 60Hz equipment. I’ve been told second hand that the Wilmington station rehab will be all 60 Hz??? How much more conversion of WASH US is unknown.
5. Conversion except for some stations (NYP, maybe Newark, PHL, Trenton, BAL, WASH due to ceiling clearances) to 25Kv will require a phased approach to address any clearance problems. Possible order of conversion.
most of Hellgate line is already 12.5Kv 60 hz.
only part not 60 Hz is from Gate to Harold a distance of 1.4 miles.
Dutch: Thanks for that information. When was it converted? It only makes sense to keep it 12.5Kv 60Hz since MN operates that type power and NYP cannot ever be increased to over 12.5Kv due to the ceiling clearances. Will edit post.
At least 12 years ago, the same section from Gate to Harold since its 11.5 Kv 25 hz can not be traveled with new M-8 commuter cars, they can’t be operated on 25 hz.
so they need to bridge the Gate to Harold segment with aditional LIRR third rail.
The cost of that third rail and substation could probably pay for 60 hz conversion of Gate to NYP
Thanks for the information. The slow conversion due to amtrak’s limited annual budget actually makes since. I wasn’t sure if amtrak was slowly upgrading or just trying to maintain legacy equipment because the costs of maintaining being cheaper than upgrading. know in industrial control systems I’ve seen stuff that in some cases being legacy stuff from late 50’s because some bean counter determined it is cheaper to maintain than upgrade due to costs despite reliability and other times cheaper to just replace with modern stuff or worse some messed up mixed with parts from both eras.
So amtrak is actually upgrading to 60Hz on some slow timetable.
ungern
As far as I know, NJT no longer has any equipment that cannot operate at 12.5KV 60 Hz. If it does, tell me which equipment it is. 25KV is a different matter, of course. SEPTA’s oldest silverliner mu’s may fit that description, however.
A better solution might be to take the 25 cycle wire down and run a 5000 HP gas turbine/electric locomotive on the head end between Penn Station and WDC and back. The Bombardier Jet Train locomotive is fully developed and could rrun the same schedule as the Acela electrics and it would not be troubled by catenary problems due to weather or other causes. On arrival ar Penn Station on the return trip, it would be swapped for the Acela unit and held for the next southbound train. It would take a few Tuurbine locomotives and some logistics but nothing that complex and the trains stop in Penn Station anyway.The passengers would never know the difference but they might note a reliabilty improvement.
This is a practical solution that stands little chance of implementation because of Amtrak’s bias against gas turbine power.
Locomotive changes at New Haven back in the days before the NEC North to Boston was electrified used to be a major scheduling chokepoint…
I think it is possible the Jet Train may get a new lease on life for at least some of the proposed high speed routes…
A power change at Penn Station would be a scheduling nightmare. Remember, you wouldn’t be changing power only on the Acelas but on every through train. Also remember that the third rail is still in place through the Hudson River tunnels to support the wire train because there isn’t enough ventilation in those tunnels to allow diesel (or gas turbine) operation.
Good question Dave. The NJT equipment as I understand it for the mid-town direct is tri-power capable as the ex EL lines went directly to 25KV 60Hz. Since it has several years since I have been on the NEC I do not know what equipment operates where??. ALP 46s yes
Only sure that the SEPTA Silverliner 5s are equipped for 25Kv 60Hz with the installation of a separate transformer tap switch that SEPTA specified space for in their 5’s specifications. 3s &4s I have not been able to find out. SEPTA motors???
MARC HHPs yes.
Modern construction of locos and EMUs makes this simple.
1. Pan collects electricity whatever power
2. Electricity go to transformer that has a center tap for 12Kv 25Hz/12,5Kv 60 Hz. Same transformer has an endtap for 25Kv 60 Hz switching can be either automatic with voltage sensors or manual by engineer. The transformer has to be a bit larger for the 25 Hz current but otherwise works same for 60 Hz.
3. Transformer output goes to full phase rectifier to get DC.
4. DC goes to inverters
A. One 60 Hz for train equipment (HEP on motors).
B. Second or more to varible frequency inverters for AC traction motors.
5. The question is asked why not save money by using DC traction motors? Since the output of the rectifiers is constant DC there is a need for current resistors to vary the output to the traction motors. Diesel locomotives do not have this problem since the diesel’s alternator volt
I thought the New York regulations the brought in electrification to NYC in the first place virtually prevented any form of fossil fueled motive power within NYC…additional the tunnels into Penn Station and under the Hudson would become he!!ish with exhaust fumes.
Hello Manhattan Transfer.
Add to that that the Jettrain was a failure., when pulling two cars the fuel use was through the roof, and the power unit had trouble bringing one amfleet and one metroliner cab car up to 110 mph at tests, the unit is stored at Pueblo test center and will probably never run again.
Re Fire Marshal regs on fossil fuels underground in NYC forbids operating on fossil fuels but not carrying such fuel on-noard. The UAC Turbotrain, the Turboliners I, II, and III all had 3rd rail propulsion for use in the tunnels, I’'m not sure about the Jet Train but it’s easy to add.though in this application I would use the trailing electric locomitve.
The engine change at New Haven was a apain because it extended an otherwise brief station stop. The need for a walking visual brakec test took a lot of time. (Transit treins break-up and make-up many times a day without this) The opperation could be automated with today’s technology and a will to do it. All the non-Acela trains could readily run on turbine power and make schedule…
I find it hard to understand how 5000 HP could not handle two Amfleet cars. The first vintage RTL’s hauled a five-car train at over 125 mph in trials at Pueblo. with a little less than 2300 HP traction. (I was on it!). I was aware that the Jet Train had some early problems but understood these were corrected. It has been used iin demonstrations for several proposed Canadian HSR programs…