I live in Logansport, Indiana … I am building a model railroad layout in my basement … right now, it’s about 17 ft. by 17 ft., and it wraps around the perimeter of one side of the basement area.
Power Setup:
Cab A is an MRC ControlMaster20 walk-around power supply - I use this for operating the main line running of the trains
Cab B is an MRC Tech 7 ampac 760 power supply - I use this to power the switch controls, and for switching operations on sidings
I am utilizing two (2) Atlas Controllers and six (6) Atlas Selectors, which power the individual (14) blocks
You’ve probably gotten too much glue in the rail joiners if you are using them to feed power. Especially if they fit on loosely. I have built 2 layouts powered this way, but I don’t buy the horribly overpriced Atlas terminal joiners - I just solder wires to regular joiners, making up a bunch ahead of time at the workbench. I use only new, unused joiners for this, that way they are a very tight fit when installing them. AFter painting the rails and ballasting, I’ve never had any problems with power loss. However, if the joiners are easy to slide on, and/or have been previously used, then when you paint or ballast, the paint and glue can wick down in the joiner and insulate it from the rails. You might be able to correct this by carefully sliding the joiners back and forth a bit with a small screwdriver to clean off some contact area. I’d also solder some to the rails, or else install additional feeders that are sodlered directly to the rails instead of joiners.
–Randy
[#welcome]
Glad to have you and sure you can find help to figure this out here.
Another couple of possibilities…
No wiring was changed along about the time you ballasted? Sounds like a small enough layout to not be an issue, but if you have runs in the control circuit for the CM20, they must be no longer than 40’ or control tends to be lost.
Then you mention changing controllers. Note that there were two versions of the CM20 and the hand controllers are incompatible with each. You must use the early controller with the fan-equipped original version and the later controller for the CM20 that doesn’t have a fan for ventilation.
Maybe not issues at all here, but just wamted to be certain. As Randy indicated, getting matte medium in railjoiners if you depend on them to carry power is the likeliest scenario. The solution is to add drops to each section of rail for that.
I’m not familiar with the Tech 7.
Welcome aboard! [#welcome]
I agree with Randy about getting ballasting glue in the rail joiners.
It’s not just the joiners with feeders on them, either. Any non-soldered rail joiner will be suspect.
There was a discussion on the Layouts and Layout Building forum a few weeks back on the merits and problems of soldering rail joiners. You might want to check that out.
I also make my own “terminal joiners” at the workbench. I use a thicker wire than the stuff the Atlas ones use. I also use red wire for half and black for the other half, and maintain that color code for my track bus beneath the layout. That way I know which wire belongs where when I’m underneath.
[#welcome] HoosierRailFan.
I agree, joiners must have glue in them. If you used a water-soluble glue, you could also use an eye-dropper to apply some water directly to the joiners, then slide them around a bit as suggested. And, make sure they are tight to the rails afterwards, otherwise it still will not work. (Sometimes a small set of needle nosed pliers can be used to compress the joiner, other times a small flat bladed screwdriver will work. Sometimes they just need replaced.)
This type of issue is exactly why some, myself included, recommend feeders be soldered directly to the rails, thus using the rail joiners for alignment only, not power. Rail joiners tend to have (or create) power issues over time.
The way I do it, is I slide ties apart from the center, pushing them together in two sections, by clipping the spacers underneath the rails, exposing a section of rail in between them. I then solder feeder wires to the underside of the rail, then slide the ties back into position after everything is cool. Some ties might need to be trimmed slightly to rest back in place without creating a bump, but this is easy to do on your workbench. (And, on handlaid segments, this can be done before the rail is even spiked down, and zero interference from ties, as they are completely separate from the rails until rails are spiked down. But, that is for another thread…)
EDIT: And, just to be certain, after ballasting you cleaned the rails? If not, this can also create power issues, as any glue on the rail tops will act as an insulator, just as well as glue in joints will…
OK … so I went downstairs into the basement (the submarine, as I like to refer to it) and 1) took off every piece of rolling stock that was on the track; 2) checked to see if my Kadee coupler tool had been left somewhere on the track (it had not), and then 3) with a pair of needle-nose pliers, went to each wired rail joiner and pried it along the rails to loosen any glue that might be insulating it from the rails … made sure that the joiners were still snug to the rails when I was done.
No luck … still no power getting to the rails where my test engine is sitting … a Pennsy switcher diesel … the “Guinney Pig” … the headlight doesn’t come on … nothin’ …
I’ll take some pictures later to show just how everything is wired, and if anyone sees something I did wrong, please let me know …
I’m diabetic … and I have neuropathy (nerve damage) in both of my hands as well as my feet … I have to wear gloves on my hands 24/7 in order to tolerate the pain, so sodering (for me at least) is nor an option … don’t want to risk my hands catching fire …
When I glued the ballast in place, I used an empty Elmer’s bottle, 3 parts glue to 1 part water, with 3 drops of Dawn liquid soap … shook it up real good (with the cap on and closed … I’ve made that mistake before) … and then squirted the solution over the ballasted areas … given the size of my layout, it took over a week to complete the gluing process … but the trains immediately after the gluing was done … it was over the course of the first week that the engines slowly stopped running …
As Mr B hinted, there is a downside of soldering all the rail joiners if you have temperature and humidity swings.
Soldering underneath the rails is certainly the most invisible way to do it, but much harder now that you have ballasted the track. The MR way is to take a solid wire, mash the very end of it so it’s flat. This is the bit that gets soldered to the outside of the rail. put a 90 degree bend in it, and bend it again so you have an upside down L with the mashed part at the end of the short leg. Drill a hole between the ties and run the long end down the hole and solder the short end to the rail.
If you have 2" foam you will need to go to Ace Hardware and buy a long 1/8" drill bit. A bit of paint and it’s pretty well camoflaged.
Hi, and welcome!
I will likely mirror what previous posters have said, so bear with me…
Assuming you have no shorts, the key is to clean your track thoroughly and begin on a mission to install power feeders (from buss wires) every 4 feet or so and to every siding. For a layout your size, I would use buss wires of 14 (or 12) gauge stranded wire, and feeders of 20-22 gauge solid.
This is a good practice for DC, but almost a must for DCC as it is more finicky on a constant source of juice.
BTW, I would not run the feeders to the joiners, but rather to the rails themselves.
[#welcome] fellow Hoosier!
From your description of the problem and when it began to occur, it sounds as if glue got into the rail joiners as others have pointed out. Combined with the possibility that there is glue on the railhead, from the same ballasting operation, and that your wiring has been re-checked, this is likely the source of your troubles. The glue is somewhat hard to remove, last time I did it I had to use decent pressure on the track cleaning block.
Turn on the power and place a engine on a section which is inoperable. Take a small screwdriver and slide each joiner back and forth slightly. When the engine moves you found the fault.
OK … spent the last two (2) days cleaning the track … Walthers trackcleaning eraser … then took a box cutter and a blade screewdriver, and slid each rail joiner back and forth along the rails (both sides of each track connection … no loose railjoiners were found, and any dried glue thatt was loosened was brushed away … I spent the previous two (2) days on the floor sliding around from wire connection to wire connection, replacing each and every wire nut with actual wire connectors and terminal connector blocks …
And after all of this … nothing … I am at a total loss …
Forget tightening the joiners with a needlenoose. Sure you will tightent them side to side but will also loosen them up and down.
SOLDER is the only way to go.
While not diabetic, I do have neuropathy in my hands and feet. I put hand warmers in my shoes, and wear gloves on my fingers. Still SOLDERING is the easiest way to go, Using tools that require squees or twist bothers the arthritis in the joints.
Soldering can indeed be done safely, gloves or not gloves, and I have never burned the fur on my paws or elsewither.
Solder all of the joints. Expansion or contraction is in the wood of the table not in the metal of the rails. Little gaps are ok, LION has lots of them for power control, but expansion and contractionof the wood table due to humidity changes is far more dramatic, and no wittl gap will solve that problem.
ROAR
So this morning, I was looking over the wiring connections at the Atlas Controllers we have installed … we are utilizing two (2) of them, one for a future turntable, and one for the existing reversing loop the layout features … and, on a whim, I started checking the connections for the reversing loop and the ‘C’ connection … and lo and behold, the common wire lead was not connected to the ‘C’ terminal post … so I made that fix, and presto! … the train started running!
But my euphoria was short lived, as shortly after working, the train stopped running again … so now I’m wondering if the gauge of the wire for the ‘C’ wire lead, as well the wire leads from the Atlas Selectors to the individual “blocks” needs to be increased … I used the red and black spools of wire that Atlas sells … I think it’s 20 gauge (could be 18) … I’m wondering if beefing them up to 12 or 14 gauge could be the solution …
Divide and conquer.
Get a voltmeter, a cheap HF is good enough. If power gets to the terminal strips, does it leave those terminal strips? If it does, does it get to the rail joiner? If it’s in the rail joiner wire does it get to both of the connected rails? Find out where the electrons stop moving.
You need to trace the power flow and see where it ends. You can use your electric wheel cleaner or a a cheap light up voltage tester, or a real tester. If you have power on the input screws of the selectors, then next check the voltage between each output screw and the common wires (which should all be tied together with a wire nut). If you only have one common wire for the entire layout then that is your weak link.
Another test you could do is to hook up the power to the rails temporarily with aligator clips. If that works then the problem is in the wiring or the connections.
Sometimes problems like this are several problems combined. Make sure your wheels on your locos are clean. When the track gets dirty so do they.
I hope this helps.
j…
Won’t Work. Putting a test lead on the rail will apply just enough pressure to eliminate the gap at the joiner. You will come up with a clean bill of health and will still stall your trains.
Locomotives are heavy. they will press down the track that they are on, creating a gap that would not be there if the locomotive was not there.
ROAR
Update: Spent the last two (2) hours re-running the leads from the MRC Control Master to the Atlas Controller … I had some 18 Gauge speaker wire (braided) that I had brought with us when we moved from Florida to Indiana 3 years ago … also re-ran the reversing loop leads, and the common rail feed with this 18 gauge wire … still nothing …
Yes, there is only 1 common lead for the layout … it wasn’t a problem before, and all the engines ran just fine … I may yet go to the local Home Depot and see about perhaps getting some 14 gauge wire to use
At this point, I debating having a friend who’s an electrician stop over and take a look … I’ve done all of the “simple fixes” that I know to do …
Having only one common buss wire set is not a problem. Only one feeder wire to the tracks would be.
If you are stating that’s you replaced the buss wire that your multiple feeders come off of, that is a start, but most likely your feeders need some attention.
However, if your statement:
is saying that you have one set of wires to the tracks as feeder wires, this is your problem.
Even soldered joints, on every joint, will cause a power drop after so long if you rely on only one set of wires to the tracks, on most sized layouts, but especially on a larger 17X17 layout. That would have way to long of a run with only one feeder input to the rails. Rail is not as good of a power conductor, especially with more than one locomotive load on it, as regular old wire.
And, for a 17X17 layout, for a buss wire, 18 is a bit small, I would use a 14, even 12 gauge run for buss wire, the 18-22 would work for the feeder wires.
Edit: To clarify, if the buss wire is only 18 gauge, you will still experience a power drop at the far end. Thicker wire for longer runs = more power available. Less power drop is always better.
(Edited typo.)
For a quick and easy test for power, I use a builb with two leads, with alagator clips. The bulb is the type you can get a package of 3 or 4, with sticky tape on the bottom, to light up buildings. I forgot who puts them out. Works great, even on DCC. Havent burnt one out yet.
Just a quick idea for testing for power.
Mike.
OK … I have one (1) “common wire feed” for the entire layout … and I have thirteen (13) isolated sections … “blocks”, if you will … and a section of track that acts as a “reversing section” … it is completely isolated by insulated rail joiners … and has its own wired leads for power, which can have the polarituy flipped (reversed) as needed …
As long as I hadn’t started the “ballasting” process, the layout ran fine … power was not an issue … multiple engines ran in the sidings and the yard without issue … “life was good” …
But once the ballasting was done, the problems began … I’m getting power from the power packs to the Atlas Controllers that I’m using … one is for a future turntable, and the other supplies the power to the “reversing” track … a series of Atlas Selectors control power to the individual “blocks” … and again, all of this was working absolutely fine, with no problems at all … until I finished the ballasting process …
I am using the Atlas wired rail-joiners, as I am not able to solder wire to the rails, as some here have suggested … and the wire guage on these is undeniably thin (22 guage?) … but again, it was working fine before the ballast was put done … I have re-run the feeder wires to the reversing track (both wires), the common wire feed to the Atlas Controller from the primary connection point, and the connection from “Cab ‘A’” to the first of the Atlas Controllers … and still, no power is getting to the track … either the main line, or any of the sidings or the main yard … and I utilized 18guage braded speaker wire … the connection ends that I had fit on the 18 guage wire without any problem, all though I will admit that the connection ends that fir for the screw posts on the Atlas Controllers and Selectors are rather narrow, so I would have to try and find connection ends that will accomodate the thicker gauge wire th