Can anyone say he is diverting funds from rail (electfified rail to roads) and is 100% behind the war against terror?
Al lthis talk about subsidization seems to leave out the costs of securing sources of foreign oil, costs in lives as well as gobs of money.
Dave, there is a discussion on this on the General threads…but, no, political position and positioning has more to do with this than Homeland Security…
And see my comment about massive upgrading of PATH for more efficient use of their tunnes to provide the needed benefit if not the total benefit - on the General Thread.
Just Curious, Dave:
Your question about diversion of funds; Are your referencing Gov. Christie of New Jersey ?
Or, Obama and the Washington Govt and their announcement of another $80 (Billion) more for ‘Infrastructure’?
Gov. Christie. Also, as on the Trains thread. Definitely NJ Gas taxes are far too low.
Yes!! PATH doesn’t have practical connections in NYC beyond the neighborhoods around their own stations because of an old, 100-year-old grudge. Upgrading its signalling and connecting it with major hubs in NYC and even supporting run-through NYC Subway lines would have gone a long way, but an agreement was never reached.
It’s a joke you can’t reach anything from the one-off PATH system without a long walk on the surface or myriad transfers in midtown, or a loooong ride uptown from WTC. The Gimbels passage was a joke, too (now closed).
PATH is an example of what the competition tried to kill with benign neglect. Then again so is NYP and GCT’s annoying distance. So, too, the almost complete disconnection of North Station/South Station in Boston. At least Amtrak partially solved their part of the NYP/GCT problem with the West Side Connection. Pennsylvania was able to connect the Reading and PRR systems with a seemingly “impossible” grade needed to bypass the Reading terminal. East Side Access will bring LIRR commuters midtown.
It’s PATH’s turn to get a practical solution.
Aegrotatio: Its not that easy.
1. PATH was built with a lot of twists and turns
2. The signal systems are close to compatible.
3. Because of the many curves of the PATH system their cars are far shorter than any of the NYC subway cars, LIRR, or MNRR. Even the shorter IRT cars are longer than PATH cars.
4. I have wondered for years why that type of non straight trackage was completed and why no effort has never been made to remedy?
I think PATH specifications (H&MRR) would have more closely matched the original IRT (numbered lines) which also has skinny and shorter cars and platforms. But, as it turned out, they never agreed to cooperate. They ended up designing and building their own systems. The Hudson & Manhattan Railroad had always intended to branch throughout Manhattan by way of connecting to the subways.
It’s somewhat similar to the situation we have today with the numbered NYC subway lines (IRT) being completely separated from the BMT/IND lines as far as the cars and tracks go, but they never tried to cooperate until the city-owned IND came into the picture.
Nevertheless, PATH cars CAN operate on A-division (IRT) tracks in tunnels. except for some signals which need to be moved because the PATH cars are slightly wider at the belt rail only. The original Hudson and Manhattan “black cars” were tested in revenue service on the Second Avenue Elevated (which had the strongest structure of the four), much as the first IND subway cars were tested in BMT Sea Beach Line service.
The changes I am proposing are simple, economical, and very practical.
I think that when all the NY City subways became municipally owned while the H&M Railroad remained private was the seal of doom for integration (PRR owned the H&M). This was further nailed shut when the Port Authority took over the H&M renaming it PATH. Politics and turf will keep them apart for a long while yet.
BUt it does point up the real need for a Regional Rail and Transportation Authority, or somethning, to integrate planning, schedules, routings, construction, additions, reconfigurations, equpment utilization, and "other " modifications and adaptations as seen fit to, well, make it all work together to move people to, from, and within a 50 to 100 mile radius of the Big Apple. Heavy rail, rapid transit, light rail, and non rail options should all be included in this system with nothing left out (even freight railroad operations have to be included if only to keep them apart from passenger movements!).
Interesting.
Does the opportunity exist to connect PATH with the new 2nd Ave Subway line?
You are talking distances in less than two miles, but PATH run along 6th Ave to 33rd St. In the long run, the anwer is “no”, probably, most likely, not. No reason to consider. Again remember PATH is Port of Authority while subway is MTA which means the two lines could be side by side or one on top of the other and the chance of connecting are miniscule.
AFAIK, the H&M was originally intended to go to Grand Central. This would be an improvement over the present situation.
Ahh, 6th. Ave vs. 2nd Ave, yes, I am not familiar enough with Manhattan to know that is silly.
THanks for the info.
The actual end of track of PATH at Herald Squar e is south of 32nd Street, not 33rd, but the 33 name was kept after the rebuilding of the station in connection with 6th Avenu Subway construction, late '30’s, and early '40’s. The planed path to GTC is blocked by many basements and foundations of tall buildings and by the Herald Square station complex itself.
Oh yeah! That brings up (really down) and important point about how easy it is to talk digging tunnels and going underground in the City when it has been built under for over 100 years. Building basements, utility tunnels for water, sewer, gas and electricity, passage ways, subway tunnels and stations, supports for streets and whatever else: somethings are not even on the charts anymore, so there is a chance of a suprise in every shovelful! Put in a crosstown tunnel and how far down do you have to go before you are actually clearning under everything; probably it becomes more of a roller coaster than the the straight line you think you’re building. New from Jersey? the Island? down from the Bronx? extend this from here to there? T’ain’t as easy as it sounds.
It’s even more of a missed opportunity for PATH to connect to the subways like they wanted to originally. It’s a lost cause, now, but ridership is huge and it’s a viable mode from Hoboken and places like that, anyway.
Mon 11/8 Star Ledger and NJ.com are reporting Amtrak and NJT are talking about joint venture for ARC.
Fri 11/12/10 morning news reports are that Amtrak and NJT have broken off talks…ARC is not in the scope of Amtrak’s services.
In the long run this may not really matter as Gov. Christie digs a hole he can’t get out of (transporting people across his state-wise) it might be big enough and deep enough to drive a train into!
See the General discussion above for more on this subject including the latest word on extending the NYC MTA’s 7 Train to Secaucus…an idea that evidently has been floated several times over the years but revived in a 4 page memo by NY Mayor Blumberg.