I found a nice original paint #833 with working spark thrower, stamped wheels and original winding key for $18…and I just found a Wind up Commador Vanderbuilt with matching NYC tender & caboose with no key for $20 ( they have a bunch of scratches &plastic wheels but I don’t mind)
I’ll post photos as soon as I get the second engine in the mail.
I am hooked on collecting more LOL!,
I was wondering if there is anything a person who is new to windup trains should be aware of before running the heck out of them? I have followed the Marx Tin collecting thread from the beginning but found nothing about maintenance or winding & running tips so far.
I’m mostly concerned about about accidentilly over winding the spring - how many turns can one of these safely take?
Is it good or bad to lube the mechanism with light weight oil? I’m used to greasing & oiling my electric trains, will it help or hurt a mechanical train?
Also can these be run on 3 rail track? I noticed the spring hangs down on my 833 when winding and rubs the center rail sometimes, I figure i can get some cheap o-27 track and pull off the center rails if I have to and build a small layout for just my marx stuff. It runs a 36"x 50" loop of O-31 lionel track about 3 times with a tender, 1 car, and a caboose before running down, the spring rubs the center rail and slows it down…if I lift it up off the track it runs a little while longer.
Be careful not to wind them up till the key stops, you can break the spring that way.
I run my mechanicals on 3 rail no problem, however there is usually lots of vintage 2 rail track for sale on Ebay. Be careful with any turnouts if your locomotives have the older extra wide flange where the gear teeth are just inside the wheel flange, those require the oldest style Marx turnouts that have extra wide frogs to accommodate the thick flange. BTW regular or contemporary Lionel switches will cause instant derailment with those thick flanges.
I keep my mechies regularly oiled with Labells at the points of motion, gear teeth and axles, just a dab where any friction can occur.
I recommend you lube everything with motor oil, 5/10W-20/30. I have used it for 50+ years with no problems. Make sure you oil the spring. Corrosion will cause the spring to break. If there is any corrosion that you can see, I would recommend you polish it off. Polish in the direction of the length of the spring. You can buy 2 rail Marx switches which will work fine with the fat wheels, or you can use the Marx 3 rail metal switches.
As long as oil wont goof up the mechinism I’ll give it a try, sparingly and just on the friction points
For now I plan on just using some old rusty 3 rail marx track I have, I can remove the center rail and sand blast it clean, give it a quick coat of metallic paint to get up and running, I’ll worry about finding turn outs a little later, Good tip on the flanges and frogs though.
The locomotive I have now is pre 1950 and has no guard or cover on the main spring and when it is wound up it hangs down below the wheels and rubs the center rail, I think if the center rail is gone it will run smoother & maybe longer.
Kind of a fun deal to build a small dedicated wind up layout, I love the video above ,the “rail zepplin” is friggin great! No wires, no bad connections, no dirty contacts, I’ll have something to do if the power goes out.
I cant wait to get started on a small 3’x4’ loop on a painted board and find some toy type buildings.
-Thanks again guys, Jason
P.S. feel free to keep the small wind up layout photos coming, I love the one on youtube that folds into a storage case…I cant think of the member’s name on here who built it…he was just in CTT a few months ago with his postwar Lionel layout, he does very neat work.
Jason, Congratulations on the Marx windups! I’m always glad to meet another “Springhead”. The guys have given you good advice already, I’ll just touch on a few points…
Winding - Marx used to advertise that their motors could not be overwound… that may have been true when they were brand new, but after decades of use, it is best to be cautious. It is usually easiest to count half-turns when winding, a Marx motor will usually wind between 14 to 16 half turns. I would suggest winding your locomotive up completely one time, counting half turns as you wind, going slow and careful when you approach 14 half turns. When you feel the spring bind, note the number of half turns, then always wind it one less half turn after that. As a side note - if you run windup trains on a regular basis, you will break a spring at some point. It’s not the end of the world; most breaks are near the ends and can be reterminated. Marx windups are common, so it is pretty easy to find extra motors for either replacement or parts.
Oil - Like servoguy, I’ve used motor oil without any problems. I prefer synthetic because it isn’t as prone to gumming up. Lately, I’ve switched to a non-gumming “Turbine Oil” made by Norvey - it is specifically made for fan motors that run long periods of time without oiling or cleaning, so it works well in clockwork trains, too. I’m sure Labell is good, also. As long as the motor is clean and oiled, it should be fine.
Track - They run fine on 3 rail track. However, I like two rail track, so I use any and all clockwork track I can find. Marx made two rail in O27, along with straight track, switches and 90 degree crossings. You will also occasionally find track from Hafner, American Flyer, Ives, etc… most of which is in the O27 size range. On my layout, I use original Marx windup track on the inside Figure 8 / reverse loop
I recommend you guys oil the springs so that they are covered with oil from one end to the other. Spring steel is more corrosive than regular steel because of the high carbon content. Corrosion will cause the spring to fatigue and break. The oil will prevent corrosion.
OK, I took the above advice I cleaned all the dust, fuzz and junk out of the mechanism and oiled the spring and gears and it ran much smoother and quieter,
I used automotive gear oil because it is supposed to “cling” or stick to the metal better, it was a little bit too thick, but it helped get the parts moving again, I then wiped off all the excess after running it on the workbench a few times. After wiping all the oil off I could and recleaning the dirt, I used a light weight machine oil that is for small gears in digital printers or photocopiers, after testing on the bench it unwinds much smoother with the light oil.
The above videos are great, I cant believe the run times…almost 3 min! Man I’m jelious my loco only runs about 30 sec with a stop watch…it seemed longer untill I actually timed it.
One more question, did marx have different spring lengths? or is it possible my spring broke and some one shortened it. Is it possible to replace the main spring without major dissasembly or restaking the chassis?
I can only get 7.5 to 8 half turns of the key and about 25-30 seconds of unwind time on the workbench. If I count the clicks of the ratchet it is about 23-24 clicks before the spring is tight. Does this sound normal for a Marx with stamped wheels and a spark thrower?
As soon as I get my other package in the mail…and figure out what they did to my Flickr photo account I’ll get some photos posted, I’m back to fixing up my track to run this on.
Jason, as far as I know, all Marx windups used the same length of spring, so I suspect yours has been broken and shortened. The ratchet will click 6 times per turn, so your 24 clicks = 4 complete turns, confirming your 8 half turns. It should wind almost twice that, and your run time should be almost twice as long. A stock Marx windup motor in good condition will normally run around 50 seconds or so, depending on the governor’s speed, and should travel somewhere in the neighborhood of 100’.
I don’t know of any place that sells a new mainspring that is an exact replacement for the original Marx spring, but the motors are pretty common, so I would just find an old non-running motor cheap and reuse the mainspring. It can be replaced without taking the motor apart, but it does take some care and patience. I do want to caution you that even a small mainspring can store a enough energy to hurt you, so it pays to be careful - the end of the spring can whip around and give you a painful cut or worse. Anyway, I like to use a vice to hold the motor, being careful to tighten it just enough to hold the motor without bending the sideplates. The mainspring will have to be unhooked from the crossmember, then pulled out… since yours isn’t broken, the drivers will be spinning as you pull on the spring. I use vice grips to grasp the spring. The hardest part is the last little bit by the hub, and unhooking the spring. The new spring is hooked to the hub and the spring wound in using the key.
Here is a video I made of repairing a Marx motor, sped up to 4x real speed. It wouldn’t wind, so I removed the spring thinking that it was broken… but it had a broken hub, so the motor had to come apart anyway. Regardless, it will give you an idea of how to remove and replace the mainspring. Sorry about the music, I just couldn’t pass up a song title, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” [;)]
Jame P. THANK YOU! The repair video is a HUGE help, the trick of stuffing the spring down a pipe is awesome. Actually all the videos you posted on you tube are great…the live steam is friggin’ awesome WOW!
Well, it figures every time I buy something…I end up having to fix it - no big deal. I’ll find the parts and I’m handy with tools and fabricating parts. I don’t have machine shop tools so I hope its just a spring length issue.
I wonder if an old clock / watch repair shop would have spring steel to use in these locomotives? I would expect to have to cut & bend the ends, as long as width & tension of the steel is the same
I will probably keep the 833 engine together for awhile until I acquire some more wind up marx stuff, I plan on hitting the local hobby shop for their “Junk box” also the auction house around here is also full of marx “junk”.
Once I find another loco that runs well I’ll try working on the 833, I dont want to mess up the only wind up I own right now, I hope the CV I have coming in the mail runs longer than this one.
I starting to really love these little wind up trains they are simple but cool and after looking at the prices of some them compared to the postwar lionel stuff I have been fixing & running…well I better keep that secret to my self. ;^)
Once I get some experience with the cheaper low end marx wind ups, I’d love to own an American Flyer prewar passenger set some day.
Thanks for the great advice and I promise to get the photos up soon!
Jason, you can check with a clock repair shop for a spring; they may have something that will work. The Marx mainsprings I have measured are about 65" long, 3/8" wide and .024" thick. Marx actually used a couple of different thicknesses - depending on the application - but the majority had a .024" spring. The thicker the spring, the more torque it has. The longer the spring, the longer the run. I’ve bought springs from Clockworks before, they have a good selection of mainsprings on this page. However, their 3/8" mainsprings are a bit shorter and thinner than the stock Marx mainsprings, so the loco won’t perform as well as it does with an original spring. You can remove the temper from the end of a spring with a propane torch, just heat it to a dull red and let it cool down slowly without quenching or blowing on it. Then you can drill it, bend it, etc without problem. I usually do any sharp bending with the spring cherry red to avoid breaking it.
BTW, when you get ready to work on the loco, shoot me a PM - I’m sure I’ve got an extra mainspring that I can spare.
James, I might just take you up on the offer for a spring, I’m the kind of guy that if I buy a parts engine sooner or later I’m going to try to fix up the parts engine…I hate to see anything go to waste.
I’m going to check my local sources this weekend for a junker chassis, hopefully I come up with something I can use, would you know off hand if the later plastic body steam wind up locos would use a similar spring? I remember my LHS had a plastic one with a busted up body If they still have it I might pick it up to use for parts or experimenting on, it was pretty rough with cracks, glue & paint all over it.
My other thought is that maybe the spring is stuck together in one of the middle coils with rust or something I might try soaking it with wd-40 to see if it pops loose, the entire chassis is rust free but who knows maybe I’ll get lucky…probably not. I noticed the spring does not wind “on center” like the end was not formed like original…we’ll see.
Just for curiosity what makes the governor work on one of these later marx? I saw on your website how the wheel mounted governor works, will getting oil on or near a later unit it hurt it?, I do not see any friction points like the wheel mounted drum has, just a weight and spring.
Thanks for taking all the time to help out and thanks for the great website about clock work locos.
Most of the plastic body Marx locomotives use the late model “riser gear” motor instead of the earlier ratchet motor, but both motors use the same basic mainspring. Sounds like that locomotive would be a good donor, since the body is in such poor shape. Hope you can get it cheap! [:D]
The Marx governor is simple, the weight moves further away from the gear as centrifugal force overcomes the spring when the speed is increased. The weight then contacts the hub surrounding it, introducing a source of friction that limits the speed of the motor. Oil won’t hurt it, but it will run considerably faster. If you happen to get oil in the hub and it runs too fast, just use a Q-tip and alcohol to clean it out.
Here is a picture of a modified Marx governor I put in an Ives clockwork:
At the bottom of the picture, the hub is on the left and the governor assembly is on the right. The hub is stationary, attached to a motor sideplate, and the governor spins inside it. You can see a ring inside the perimeter of the hub where the weight rubs against it. Of course, when the motor is running slow or is stopped, the spring should retract the weight so it isn’t in contact with the hub.
This is the same governor installed in the motor:
The offer for the spring still stands if you need it - I’m always glad to help out!
Becky - You stole the words from my mouth! Last November while we were without power for many days, due to Superstorm Sandy, my wife said “what will you do now that you can’t run your trains?”
You should have seen the look on her face when I set up my American Flyer Clockwork on a towel on the kitchen table! Priceless! [swg]
about running clockwork trains on 3 rail track, … the only locomotives i find that have chronic problems are Hafner frames with the bell ringers (fixable, without modification) and cast iron American Flyer locomotive motors, some of which will literally bounce the engine off the rails if not caught before their final burst of energy (more of an operations fix). as you have noticed, clockwork motors under load will typically not wind down completely, and i’m not doubting a Marx motor spring might meet the center rail when fully unwound, but again, this shouldn’t be a problem in normal operations (ie. pulling a train).
i definitely agree with James in that you are somehow being shortchanged in your spring winding. i usually limit Marx to about 12 half turns, but after a time you will likely get proficient enough to know how many turns/ clicks it will take to reach the next station or to stop in front of you after ‘x’ number of laps.
be careful with the CV. unloaded, on O27 curves with a full winding, it will likely hop the tracks the first chance it gets and unlike an electric engine that derails, its not going to stop until it hits the wall, a furniture leg or your cat.
I was amazed at how far a Marx clockwork would go on one winding. I brought one to our modular club once and it nearly made a full lap on a layout roughly 20x40.
that sounds just about right. the last large layout i ran on was a little over a scale mile (110 ft). it was a stretch to get a full lap in a single winding, but since the loop pinched in near the center, ~8 half turns (a little more than half wound) would easily negotiate a half lap, slowing nicely as it pulled up to my position.
Well I had a busy weekend chasing arround for marx stuff in the “toy train off-season”, Sometimes I get lucky and the stuff is cheaper when people are not thinking about Christmas trees & hot choclate.
I struck out at the local antiques mall / auction / hobby shop, the only marx tin items were a few common 6" cars with real bad dents, scratches & rust with $10-$20 price tags…antiques people always think tin litho cars are “rare” at least at the train shows the high rail guys consider them “worthless”. The Plastic clockwork loco was gone at the hobby shop, he only had a corroded & rusty cast body electric 999 that was not worth the $25 he wanted even for parts it was also missing the tender .
The auction had a neat looking tin plate electric Marx UP M10005 stream liner 6 car passenger set in off white, green & red trim , but it was at $50 with a one more day to go so I passed, the cars had some dents and the loco was scratched pretty bad, its my favorite color combo of that set but it needed a bunch of work to get it presentable it also had alot of surface rust on the underside. I figure I’ll save my money for the train shows and look for a good deal.
The antiques mall had an electric Unique Arts tin litho steam/freight set with no box, it was very cool, cars had beautiful artwork, good condition, transformer that looked like a switch tower, untested they wanted $100, I was on the fence about jumping into another brand toy train to collect and availability of spare parts if I could not get it to run so I let it there…man it was cool looking though, cars were about as big as the Marx 7" tin. I can see why Louis Marx was worried when this set came out, the printing designs are really nice. Anyone know the actual value of one of these sets? Is $100 high, low ,or right where is should be? How rare are they I was kind of upset I let it there, but I’v
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