I’ve done some looking and I’m more confused now than when I started. (Not unusual).
Okay - so there seem to have been two Norfolk Southerns… and early one and the later, still going, merger of Norfolk Western and Southern (that seems to have eaten up Southern).
So was the original NS in the same place and did it become part of the big merger thing?
The real thing that is bemusing me is the liveries. Most NW and NS are basically black… then I see black or grey Southern locos with a white band plus a serious green scheme (I have an Athearn GP59 in this)… plus an NS scheme in light grey with the letters N and S on red and black (?) grounds… and sometimes “Norfolk Southern” written out in full along the hood.
Is there a guide somewhere please? Which schemes would apply to the mid 80s please?
I’m not exactly a Norfolk & Western or Southern fan. What follows is just a few tidbits I picked up along the way. I’m sure serious fans of NS and its predecessor roads would have more and better information. You might try searching for historical societies for the railroads in question.
The original Norfolk Southern was absorbed into the present Norfolk Southern. I seem to recall that during the merger, the original NS was renamed Norfolk and Western, and then merged into the modern Norfolk Southern.
Norfolk and Western started with blue diesels, but later pioneered the black paint schemes used during the 1960s. A few NW diesels used on trains of business cars were painted a red-maroon color.
Southern used a very dark (almost black) green for many years. I do believe a few Southern diesels painted in the old Southern scheme were retained for special trains.
I don’t remember the colors used by the original NS.
I believe the odd fish in the OP’s collection was in the original (shortline) Norfolk Southern scheme. The much larger Norfolk and Western (of A, J and Y6 fame) absorbed the earlier NS some years before the merger with the Southern that created the pre-Conrail-breakup NS, N&W diesels were always black.
Why the streamlined steam Tuscan red stripe was never applied to N&W diesels has sometimes puzzled me.
To the best of my knowledge and from what I could find researching your question there has only ever been one Norfolk Southern railroad which our correct was result of the Norfolk & Western buying up the Southern railroad. and which had today become the present day Norfolk Southern -CSX railroad. As far as seeing Gray locomotives with NS logo etc. may possibly have been a patched over Southern loco as Southern used to paint their power gray with a red stripe and lettering and sometimes green/gray I have seen some funky NS paint schemes such as they now have some eco green total electric thingamajig with a green black and white paint job. In the day of vinyl graphics which most everything from buses to trucks to trains to plane uses you never know what your going to see next. Don’t take what you see on any model as gospel I have a pair of B&O Alco PA-PB engines sitting right in front of me that never existed. Many companies simply put the most popular road name on what ever they sold.
I would have to go into my files which i have some where but If I am not mistaken the mid 1980’s NS paint scheme was black with the horse head logo the white side stripe may have come along in the 90’s but don’t quote me on that.
There was a predecessor Norfolk Southern railroad prior to the current mega merger railroad. Its engines were a grey with a red stripe. That Norfolk southern was absorbed into the SOU in 1974, prior to the merger with the N&W to form the current NS.
So if he has a grey NS car, it is a legitimate scheme, its just in a 20-30 year different era.
Here is a historical society devoted to the ORIGINAL Norfolk Southern:
The old Norfolk Southern shortline was absorbed into the Norfolk and Western around 1960. It was a very small railroad, nothing like the current Norfolk Southern which emerged when N&W merged with the Southern in the eighties.
IIRC the N&W took over the Wabash c.1964, and re-lettered Wabash’s blue diesels for N&W. I’m not sure if that’s where N&W started using blue, or if they already had some blue diesels. I don’t know about any gray diesels?? Southern used green and white on passenger diesels and black and white on freight engines. As noted, it could be used engines that they bought somewhere along the line. L&N used gray diesels, and early CSX diesels were “stealth gray”.
Sorry, but the post that said Norfolk and Western never painted diesels blue is just wrong.
Several ex-NKP Alco diesels were repainted completely into the full Norfolk and Western blue paint scheme. There are color images of them at www.rrpicturearchives.net
Not all blue units came from Wabash.
Hint: look at photos of N&W (ex-NKP) RS-36 2873–some clearly show it in blue. Also note the N&W geep running behind it in one of the photos is clearly dark blue and not black. There are plenty of other blue units as well.
The replies thus far have not cited the key date. The actual merger of Norfolk & Western and the Southern Railway took place on June 1, 1982.
The “mid-80’s” thus saw a mix of N&W, Southern, and newly re-painted NS units. Here is a photo from August, 1984 at Villamont, Virginia. The train is westbound up Blue Ridge grade:
Notice that “long hood forward” was still the general practice. Both N&W and SOU had lots of high short-hood diesels. This was a notable photo because of the mix of logos; it was more common to see all N&W units together. The “horse head” didn’t get into general circulation until a little later. I lived in Roanoke at the time, and the first regular appearance of the Thoroughbred logo was about 1986 based on my photos.
That light grey NS paint scheme is from the “old” Norfolk Southern (the short line or small regional Norfolk VA to Charlotte, NC) that was purchased by the Southern in 1963. There was also some mention of NW not using a tuscan paint scheme, but that is not completely true. The N&W had a number of GE units (incl. #8076) painted in a tuscan with yellow or gold lettering for use on excursions or corporate specials.
Guys,This is from Trains Magazine’s on line resources concerning NS family tree…
Norfolk Southern Railroad
Elizabeth City & Norfolk began construction in 1880, renamed Norfolk Southern Railroad in 1883, renamed Norfolk Southern Railway in 1942 after receivership. NSR was bought by Southern Railway on January 1, 1974, and merged into Southern’s Carolina & Northwestern, which assumed the NS name. Carolina & Northwestern name reinstated in 1981 so NS name could be used for the big N&W-Southern merger.
The original Norfolk Southern railway was a shortline located in North Carolina and Virginia. This railway was latter absorbed by the Southern railway in 1974. The present Norfolk Southern railway was formed through the merger of the Southern and the Norfolk and Western railways on june 1st 1982. If the engines is painted mostly gray with red and black stirping, then it’s painted for the original NS. The N&W actually had a lot of engines painted blue. Engines built from 1966 to about 1970 were almost all painted blue. A lot of the NKP Wabash engines were painted blue instead of black. The N&W did indeed have some tuscan painted freight engines. These were a few C30-7s and a few SD40-2s (low hood). The N&W also had tuscan painted GP-9s for passenger service. So if the engine is gray, then its the original NS. If its black, then its the present NS.
An interesting side-note is that if you looked at Southern diesels, many of them had sub-lettering (just initials) showing them belonging to one of several subsidiary railroads.
As a couple of you pointed out, the N&W did have blue 2nd generation diesels and also 1st generation ones that were repainted NKP and Wabash units. Probably some of the geeps that replaced steam on the N&W out East were also repainted blue. I am not sure but most likely surviving former P&WV and Virginian locos were also repainted blue. Note that the blue units had what we called the “hamburger herald” which was a yellow circle filled in at the top and bottom with “N&W” on a line in the middle. Also note that some units were painted black with the hamburger herald. I have a color photo of a former Wabash geep painted black with the hamburger herald. When they came out with the black with the plain “NW” it was horrible. I considered it another dip job like Penn Central.
I would post some of my slides I took but have no way of hosting them right now. I wish that Kalmbach would do this like most other sites.
I am curious what the color was for the first generation geeps used in freight service that vanquised N&W steam out East in the late 50’s. Were they not maroon like the passenger geeps?
Some of you folks might find it interesting to know that some N&W cabooses were painted in the blue scheme after the Wabash lease and NKP merger. Reportedly, this was to appease the Wabash guys, but I don’t know if that is fact or fiction. (Wabash diesels in the last scheme were blue but the cabooses red, incidentally.)
It’s only been mentioned in passing, but the Southern Railway paint scheme was green with white (“imitation aluminium”) stripe with gold (yellow) pinstripes. That scheme was replaced by the black and white tuxedo scheme in the late 50s/early 60s. I believe the modern NS (not to be confused with the old NS) did a green & gold “heritage” scheme on a GP59 in the 90s. Southern also had a habit of lettering it’s locomotives for the subsidiary, but with Southern paint. So you could see Central of Georgia on a tuxedo unit or a CoG painted unit for a while.
Gray was used on the OLD NS, as well as Clinchfield until the late 60s, as well as L&N, Family Lines, & Seaboard System units. CSX even used a gray ghost scheme for a while. But as far as I know the Southern didn’t have any gray units.
I am a big fan of these railroads, so I have quite a few books on them. From these I have learned:
The original Norfolk Southern Railroad dieselized in the 1950’s with Baldwin locomotives (DS4-4-600, DS4-4-1000, and DRS6-4-1500) plus three GE 70 tonners. These were painted maroon with black and/or yellow stripes in various patterns. They later purchased Baldwin RS-416’s which were also originally maroon. In 1964 they needed new locomotives, but Baldwin was out of business. They purchased GP18’s from EMD, which arrived in a new paint scheme, gray with red diagonal stripes on the ends. The GE’s and most of the remaining Baldwins were eventually repainted into this scheme. NS later purchased GP38s which were also painted gray. In 1974, the NS was merged into the Southern Railway as a subsidiary, into which the Southern merged the Carolina Northwestern Railroad. Southern got rid of the remaining Baldwins and one of the GE’s. They rebuilt the GP18s and GP38s with high noses and long hood forward, but they still stood out on the Southern since they didn’t have dynamic brakes.
Norfolk & Western started dieselizing in the late 1950’s with EMD GP9’s and ALCO RS-11’s. These were originally black with steam era lettering on the hood sides in gold. A gothic circular herald was added later, and passenger GP9’s were repainted maroon to match the passenger cars. These color and lettering practices were similar to those of the Pennsylvania RR, which held controlling interest of the N&W. The Virginian was merged in N&W in 1959, their FM diesels were eventually repainted black. The lettering was changed to a simpler sans-seref style around this time.
Things changed big time in 1964. First, the Pennsy had to divest itself of N&W as a condition for the Penn Central merger. Next, looking to expand westward, N&W merged in two mid-western railroads; the Nickle Plate Road, the Wabash, plus some smaller lines as well such
