NYC 4-8-2 #3001 Mohawk

Mark this date on your calendar, folks! This may be the first time Schlimm & I have ever agreed on anything![:D]

The NYC Mohawk is truly a stunner — a real work of art.

Tom

Honestly. I think the Mohawk is a better looking engine than the Hudson. Forgive the apostacy, but that’s just one man’s opinion.

On the other hand, I just LOVE the Dreyfuss Hudson’s!

Dear Dr D,

You have been there and done that. Everything you said is spot on. As a 49 year IRM steam department observer, I’ve seen several locomotives out of service because of lack of leadership. We have the engines, the tools, the shop, the turntable (not ready for prime time spinning), the knowledge and we even have WILLING and DEDICATED volunteers, but alas, we have little and few operating days of steam.

The 3001 would be a “one of a kind” locomotive to restore. The northwest Indiana area has a great potential for drawing more than just your normal steam fans.

If you build it, they will come. It’s a fact! We need more Dr D’s out there!

So… Did my post get blown over or did my info get mis read…?

Your post wasn’t relevant. This discussion is about NYC 3001 in Elkhart. The locomotive at MoT is NYC 2933, and to my knowledge (S.Connor or others will correct me if otherwise) its restoration has always been cosmetic. (MoT would almost certainly bring back 1522 if they wanted to run a Mountain, for a great variety of reasons…)

Couldn’t have said it better myself!

The major reason for this is that 1522 is stored serviceable.

The Mohawk is nearing the end of her cosmetic work and (Don’t take my word for this) may be on display by the end of next year.

NYC #2933

S. Connor,

Nice photo of the MOHAWK!

I grew up in Mullett Lake, Michigan - a station stop just south of Mackinac. I remember daily looking up the highway when I heard that whistle and seeing that locomotive face! Its a classic.

Today the former New York Central mainline crosses my property - all along the beach - and in the night - in the misty night - if you listen close - the ghosts of those sister engines continue to pass by! I can hear them, I really can!

I believe, that I really do!

Dr. D

Dr. D. - you should have never posted you worked on 1225! Im gonna hound you like green on grass about it now! I wasnt fortunate enough to be there but I remember it well the day i got the word 1225 was coming out of the Univ…

There was NO ONE happier in the whole world that day I can promise you! I will take what ever you have, documents, photos, stories, reports, technicals, testaments… ANYTHING!

Dr. D,

Whenever I look at railroad tracks, I find it hard to not imagine a steam train roaring down them. I know how you feel.

-S. Connor

S. Connor,

Since you are volunteering at the St. Louis museum and took that great New York Central Mohawk photo, how about finding about the Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator? This device was used on every “Hudson”, “Mohawk” and “Niagara” and can be seen in any photograph of the right side of these locomotives including the Franklin Steam Distribution poppet valve S-2 Niagara.

I am not sure how many other railroads used it but believe it was one of the corporate tools by which Chief Steam Locomotive Designer Paul Kiefer got such performance from New York Central steam locomotives.

So what is a “Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator?” It’s a very early mechanical computer, it was a BLACK BOX hung on the side of the engine just below the air resevoir and power reversing cylinder on the right side of all of the New York Central locomotives that used it. The Valve Pilor Indicator was a mechanism which attached to the locomotive steam distribution valve gear, and was so mounted to display the movement of two needles in a gauge visable to the engineer. There was on this display a dial with two needles one red one black indicating necessary adjustments to the locomotive power reverse mechanism. The engineer adjusted the locomotive steam distribution valve gear for a condition of operation called steam “cut off.” This was done to achieve an optimum setting of power and efficiency - when the needles would align. Also included in this mechanism and located in the dial console was a rolling paper reel or tape that also kept track of the settings of the engine and was used for review at a later time.

“Locomotive Valve Cutoff” is a required performance setting of the position of the steam engine cylinder valves to allow the cylinders and boiler to work at an optimum setting of efficiency and power. Enginemen performed this adjustement as the locomotive accelerated. The use of the

Doesn’t really matter. Most components of the Valve Pilot device were standardized. Frisco 1351 in Collierville still has most, if not all, of her Valve Pilot apparatus intact, so even if there were no other instantiations intact on other locomotives, you have patterns to re-create it.

The important custom piece is the cam, and while some care and effort would need to be made to re-create it (and probably some trial and error with 3001 restored and running, to get the fine points of the cam profile established) that is a comparatively small part of the restoration effort.

Didn’t someone just win an award for a detailed article on the Valve Pilot? (I can’t find any reference on the Classic Trains site, and can’t find the notice I remember describing this – someone please reference it.)

Honestly, in a mechanical sense, I think 2933 would be the better choice to restore and operate. Of course, I’m slightly biased, no expert, and do not know the condition of the boiler, but thats just my 2 cents.

S. Connor,

I would be glad to see any New York Cental Railroad steam locomotive run!

NYC Mohawk 2933 appears entirely more intact, the firebox grates and stoker are intact as is the tender with coal pusher.

NYC Mohawk 3001 in Elkhart, Indiana, however, was built as a passenger engine and the locomotive drive is much finer. The Boxpok Drive Wheels offered much better balance and strength than the spoked drivers of NYC Mohawk 2933, also the side rods on NYC Mohawk 3001 were a light alloy and built from the start for high speed running. Also all the axles ran on roller bearings on NYC Mohawk 3001. As a passenger locomotive it was pretty close to a NYC 6000 Niagara.

So what about NYC Mohawk 2933, is the Locomotive Valve Pilot there or not? It went from storage in a NYC roundhouse direct to the St. Louis museum so it wasn’t out on where it could be picked over or stolen. I assume the Valve Pilot mechanism would be intact.

For that matter, what about the bell, and the whistle, and also are all the cab appliances intact? and what about the famous water scoop on the tender? A NYC freight Mohawk should also have a pole and re-railers hung on the side of the tender?

Also a passenger Mohawk such as NYC 3001 should should have been equipped with other special equipment - the “forstaller” and its “reciever” for Automatic Train Control. These were special safety devices used on New York Central Passenger locomotive equipment.

Thanks for checking,

Dr. D

Dr. D,

I do not know when I will be at the museum next (Especially with the upcoming holidays) but when I do get there I will check the locomotive thoroughly for the valve pilot, ect.

The bell, and whistle are at the museum, intact and restored. The cab has also been restored beautifully, but from the ground I’m afraid I can’t get up and truly check it out. (I do not work with the restoration crew and do not have the authority to access the cab).

I know the automatic signal relays are still present, as well as the hooks for the poles (Not sure where those are, and I don’t think the rerailers are with the locomotive either)

I’m sure the water scoop is there, but I have not thoroughly inspected the 2933.

Will check it out as soon as I get the chance.

-S. Connor

I had to chuckle at that one. Presence or absence of a water scoop is hardly relevant, since you’ll have a hard time finding a place to scoop water from the pans.

Yes, the L-2’s (2933) were considered freight engines; but they were used on passenger trains sometimes, and their overall size and capabilities were not much different from those of the dual service L-3’s (3001). As far as operation is concerned, nobody is likely to allow either engine to operate at 70 mph, so the 3001’s high-speed capability may not be so important.

What’s so bad about a freight engine on varnish? Many of our past, present, and future fan trip engines were designed as freight engines. These include NKP 765, PM 1225, SR 4501, N&W 1218, UP 4014, UP 3985, RDG 2102, RDG 2124, T&P 610, and many more.

If either one of those Mohawks ever breathes again, I’ll be at trackside and/or hopefully in an open-window car behind. 2933 or 3001? Who cares which?

Tom

S. Connor,

It’s pretty cool that you have the time to volunteer at the St. Louis Museum. Once you are part of a family like that you probably only have to ask for access to the cab. Especially if I you are researching a project they will allow you. The museums exist for this purpose.

Thats why Southern California cut loose UP4014 and didn’t try to keep it! This is why St. Louis is cutting loose the N&W Y6b. Any museum worth its charter is interested in more public attention and appreciation and the furthering of its mission. Its why Virginia is allowing restoration of 611 and allowing volunteers from all over the country to sign up and work on the engine.

This is also why Dick Moore the Mayor of Elkhart is totally screwed up in the head. He is peverting the National New York Central Railroad Museum mission for some kind of distorted purpose like city income or his and the city attorneys own personal fears.

Museums do not exist as private collections for the curators. They are interested in making the most historical impact and the public use of their collections. All museums love scholars and scholarship and anyone who in doing historic research - and for that purpose they have “the red carpet out.”

So tell them you are researching an article for Trains Magazine Forum they should be glad to cooperate! You should also be able to access any historical files they have. And welcome to the world of creative writing Dr. S. Connor.

Dr. D.

Thanks Dr. D,

I think it’s cool you were involved in saving PM 1225 from the prison of that park! I’m only too exited to hear “behind the scenes” stories of things like this.

As for 3001, only time will tell her fate. May someone knock sense into Ekhart.

Be back with news on 2933 when I can.

Best of Luck,

S. Connor

S. Connor,

I just happened to google “NYC Hudson” and came upon a u-tube presentation I have seen before entitled “The Steam Locomotive” by New York Central film department.

About mid way through the video the film did a nice presentation of the Valve Pilot Indicator. Showing the “black box” on the side of the engine and then the elaborate console in the cab with the dial gauge. Surprisingly they opened up the Valve Pilot Indicator and reveled the paper tape on reals that recorded the operation of the locomotive and how well the engineer adjusted the “cut off.”

Apparently these tapes were removed after every run and sent to some company railroad department that reviewed them! Now without modern computers that’s a serious amount of paper tape rolls to evaluate considering the number of engines the New York Central had running at any one time!

This interesting film and shows the “Hudson” steam locomotive in very fine detail. This would be a cool u-tube presentation for you to review if you are going to look over NYC Mohawk 2933!

Doc

Doctor D, and anyone else for that matter, if you’re really interested in the Loco Valve Pilot there’s a superb article in Kalmbach’s “Steam Glory 3” by Christopher Zahrt concerning the same. The article won a David P. Morgan award as well, and it was well deserved in my opinion.

“Steam Glory 3” is available as a back-issue, if you haven’t got it, do so.

I just spent a very enjoyable hour or so watching (again) Herron’s New York Central Vol. 1, Big Four Route: films of Donald J. Krofta, with sound recorded by Jim Hawk.

There’s our girl, 3001, in all her glory, working out of Bellefontaine (pronounced Bell-fountain), Ohio in 1955. She’s shown in several views. Also shown are several other Mohawks of various L-2, L-3. and L-4 subclasses, plus Mikes and Hudsons. Even diesel fans will get a kick out of seeing Lima diesel switchers and at least one Erie-buit F-M, so there’s something for everyone. Saint Louis’ 2933 isn’t shown, but there are several L-2 shots that will give you a sense of what she’d look like under steam.

And for those who remember, there are a couple views of 3005, the Mohawk That Refused To Abdicate.

Of all the preserved engines in the world, the NYC Mohawks are the ones I would most love to see back in steam.

(Now, where are we gonna run her?)

Tom