First of all I’m assuming Hudson Steamers pulled Freights. Current diesel freights that I encounter at crossings in my area pull about 60 Plus cars. I got to wondering how were the freights pulled by steamers such as the Hudsons? And did they lash up multiple engines? How many could one steamer pull. Finally, what years are we talking about.
I haven’t been on this forum, I mostly post at Classic Toy Trains. Any info appreciated.
runtime
Hudsons are definitely not well suited for freight service. So occasions were rare where they pulled freight. I have only one caption of two NYC Hudsons pulling a long coal drag, but they didn’t show the whole train and didn’t mention how many cars. That caption is on an older tape called “Niagaras and Mohawks” from Sunday River Productions.
New York Central Hudsons and most other railroads’ Hudsons were designed for fast passenger service and hauled freights only rarely. This was also true of many railroads’ Pacifics, including the Pennsy K-4. I would predict that a K-4 or New York Central J-1 or J-3 could handle a 50or 60 car train easily on fairly level track, but would drop to 20 or so on a 1.5% grade. A J-2 Hudson with its smaller drivers could probably handle five or ten cars more. Freight power on the NYC was Mikados and Mowhawks, 2-8-2’s and 4-8-2’s in general. 2-8-4 Birkshires on the Boston and Albany.
BY the time the NYC started running the fast Pacemaker frieght, diesels had taken over.
Thank you both for your replies.
Interestingly enough, Lionel’s toy Santa Fe Hudson and Berkshire share the same boiler castings. While the Hudson is a 4-6-4 and the Berkshire is a 4-8-4. Were the real ones as similar as their toy counterparts, differing primarily in gearing rather than power??
While I’m more familiar with the toys than their real counterparts, I’m interested in their antecedants. While I’m currently pulling a 19 car mixed freight with a Hudson, I can easily switch a Berkshire. But I will need to know what kind of passanger cars to pursue for the the Hudson.
Thanks,
runtime
Further feedback will be appreciated.
Hi Runtime,
A Berkshire is a 2-8-4 not a 4-8-4 (which is a NORTHERN type). I am curious about your Hudson having the same boiler casting as your Berk, how old are they? I have one of my nephews started in Lionel, Santa Fe and his first Locomotive was the Berk, I haven’t actually seen one of the Santa Fe Hudsons yet but the catalog pics are definitely different boilers, as are my UP Hudson Jr and my UP Berkshire Jr. Both are different castings from the Pacific also.
The Hudsons and Berkshires used different boilers, the toy versions if they are the same is just to get more use out of a mold that is already paid for, rather than spending the money for a new mold.
Doug
New York Central Hudsons hauled a variaty of passenger equipment. I cannot recall a Hudson in personal experience pulling a train of the remaining wood coaches that were still in use on the West Shore during WWII and my youth, but after that, anything the NYC owned applies: 4-wheel truck starndard heavyweight long distance coaches, six-wheel-truck heavy Pullman sleepers and parlor cars, stainless steel coaches, flat sided two-tone grey coaches and sleepers, and more including both open-platform observation cars and round end lightwieght observation cars, both smooth and stainless-Budd.
What era, and what location do you wish to model?
About the only time that a Hudson might be found on a freight would be on a break-in run after being shopped. They may have also turned up on local freights at the very end of steam operations after being bumped from the passenger pool.
Thanks for the responses guys.
Doug, I miscounted; Lionel’s Berkshire is a 2-8-4. Lionel did however use the same boiler castings for the Berkshire and SF Hudson. A good site for this is www.postwarlionel.com. My Lionel Berkshire is a 736, and my SF Hudson (it’s not a NYC, though I’m unsure if there is a diff.) is a 646.
Dave, I just want to pick up some passenger cars which would be appropriate with the SF Hudson in both style and roadname, from any time or location where they ran. Perhaps you could give me the time span overwhich these engines were used?
thanks,
runtime
Although designed to pull the heavyweight Twentieth Century Limited at high speeds, Hudsons in fact were also excellent freight engines. Most of them spent their last decade or more hauling fast freights, mail trains, and local freight and passenger trains, and did well at all of those tasks. Having rear-truck boosters helped them start long freights just as well as they did long passenger trains for example.
I’d be interested in the specifics of general use on fast freights in their last days. I rode the NYC frequently, and toward the end of steam, I saw the Birkshires displaced from the Boston and Albany and relocated to the Big Four and Michigan Central. I saw freights pulled by Mowhaks and Mikados, I saw Hudsons on local passenger trains on the West Shore and the evening commuter train to Elkhart from Chicago, while the Century and the “Steel Fleet” in general were diesel hauled with E-units. I do not doubt that on occasion, throughout their lives, Hudsons were occasionally used on freights, but not as a regular practice. The Mikados and Mowhawks were also booster equipped and could start longer and heavier trains. And the Mowhawks had all the speed necessary. The Birkshires could start even heavier trains.
I think the first Hudsons were built about 1927, and use of Hudsons continued until about 1951 or 1952. If your model railroad is before WWII in period, then the only lightweight train would be the Century (with Hudsons), and the rest would be heavywieght. At the end of their career heavyweight coaches were still use on the NYC in local passenger service, including the West Shore. Around 1947-1948 they handled a lot of lightweight equipment, including Budd stainless steel. So you have a lot of freedom in the type of train you wish to model.
I don’t know exactly how many, but more than a hand full of them were used until 1956.
I believe the last Hudsons were retired early in 1952, Jan or Feb.
In Alvin Stauffer’s “Thoroughbreds” NYC engineer Arnold H. Ainsworth said this about Hudsons:
“They had lots of power and could do a nice job on a freight train. And used as a helper double heading with a freight hog you couldn’t beat them.”
George Drury’s “New York Central in the Hudson Valley” has several pics of Hudsons being used on mainline passenger trains and later on mail trains, milk trains, freights and commuter trains. (Oops!! I think in a post a while back on Hudsons I said I didn’t think they were used on commuter trains. O well…[D)] )
I’ve seen other references to Hudsons serving well on freights in their latter years…but of course couldn’t find them now that I’m looking for them!!
Greg Scholl’s DVD on the New York Central’s final steam days in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois (in film shot by his Dad) shows unstreamlined Hudsons pulling heavyweight, two-tone gray, and stainless steel passenger cars trains in the fifties, so indeed there is a lot of latitude on what you could pull with a Hudson.
Again, I said I didn’t doubt that it was done on occasion, but not regularly. Not as scheduled regular power. I road a D&H Scranton - Carbondale train pulled by a 2-8-0. But I didn’t doubt at the time that if the regular 4-6-0 or 4-6-2 had been available, that is what would have been at the head end. Some railroads did regularly schedule passenger power of frieghts, specifically the Illinois Central and the Atlantic Coast Line. Both regularly used Pacifics to haul southern produce to northern markets, in the case of the ACL, oranges. This was not true of the New York Central . Milk trains, well OK I guess they are freight. Head end stuff, normally considered as part of the passenger operation. Oh yes, also the Northen Pacific silk trains.
Possibly the most beautiful train you could model is the immediate post-WWII Buffalo - Cleveland section of the Empire State Express. A J3a non-streamlined was scheduled power, with a J1a occasionally substituted. All stainless steel, with round-end observation.
A Niagra handled the train Harmon - Buffalo, and then both the Detroit and the Cleveland sections rated Hudsons. The obs regularly went to Cleveland.
I agree Hudsons - even late in their careers - wouldn’t be regular freight engines. They were still being used on commuter runs and local trains etc. But that being said, based on what I’ve seen, it wasn’t unusual for them to pull freight late in their careers. I guess my main point was just that in the situations where they did haul freight, they did well.
Oddly enough, NYC had some Pacifics they built specifically for freight service by the way.
Even only a quick look at
showed plenty of photos of NYC 4-6-4s dated after 1953, at least ten of them 1955. I don’t mean photos of stored engines, but with plenty of coal and under steam. Currently I don’t have access to my library, but I remember several books stating 1956 as the year the last 4-6-4s ran their last miles.
Wow, what a lively and rich discussion I started!
My view into the period ('27 - '56?) is greatly enriched by all your input.
It seems I could pull nearly anything with my toy SF Hudson and it could be considered appropriate. For passenger cars, seems almost anything Lionel or the other mfgrs have produced could be considered appropriate, except perhaps some of the real late stuff which may be form the diesel era.
I understand the Pennsylvania RR GG1s, which ran in the '30s and '40s were primarily developed for passenger service. Were the same cars pulled by them as by the Hudsons and K-4s?. Or were specific cars used with the electrics?
My interest in this era just keeps expanding as I find time to reflect on how much the world has changed in my lifetime. Thanks again.
runtime
Oops, I also meant to ask: how many cars made up a typical long haul passenger train, say between NY and Chicago or such? Thanks.
runtime
GG-1’s were in schedules freight service use, and a group had lower speed gearing, supposedly only 90, not 100 mph, for freight service.
A typical Pennsy long distance or Washington - NY train would be anything berween 10 and 26 cars, New York Central similar. Other than the difference in designs of steam and electric locomotives (but not the diesels where models common to both lines predominated), the biggest visual difference between the PRR and the NYC is the paint.
In the GG1 era, cars on NY -Washington trains were not much different than many E-W trains.
Ya that was a typo, I was typing kinda quick before going to bed. I’d just watched the NYC DVD that mentioned the last Hudson running in 1956, but typed in 1952 by mistake.
Walthers’ “Passenger Car Diagram Book” lists typical consists for a number of top (usually heavyweight) passenger trains. IIRC for the 20th century it shows 14 cars as a ‘typical consist’ (all Pullman except the NYC diner in the middle). I’ve seen pics of Hudsons running with 20 cars. At some point if there were too many passengers a second (or third or fourth…) section of the train would be added. Of course there was a regularly scheduled “Advance 20th Century” that ran ahead of the “regular” Century.