95% sure this is the way I will go. What I did not like is the lack of F9 and above fuctions. Now here is what I want to be able to do and way furtuer.
1 Soon, be able to get to F-8 fuctions and above with a extra hand held controler.
2 Soon Set CV’s and make none DCC engines DCC
3 Some what soon. Be able to control 20 engines + with extra controler.
4 Next 6 months + controls turn outs.
5 Next 6 months as well, load new sounds to the engines.
6 Up grade power if or when I need it. (bachmann E-Z 1 amp has ran 5 BLI with sound)
7 Soon Walk around control or Radio controleed.
8 In the next year, have the PC run the engines so I can sit back and enjoy.
On a tight budget, and from what I have read the Emiper Bulider will not let me set CV or added new uncode decoders.
I know buy the best as you can and not waste money. I look at it a little driffrent. Buy a new Car and you have a payment ever month. Buy a cheap car with cash, fix as it breaks down. Yes one repair could be $1000.00. Or you can pay $300.00 ever month and hope it does not break down.
95% sure this is the way I will go. What I did not like is the lack of F9 and above fuctions. Now here is what I want to be able to do and way furtuer.
1 Soon, be able to get to F-8 fuctions and above with a extra hand held controler. Add either a DT400 or UT 4 throttle to achieve this.
2 Soon Set CV’s and make none DCC engines DCC The Zephyr has both a program track and the ability to program on the main line with no modification.
3 Some what soon. Be able to control 20 engines + with extra controler. The Zephyr is limited to 10 locomotive slots, so you are going to be stuck with this if you plan to run all 20 at the same time. Also there is the power limitation to consider. If you want to run that many you will quickly outgrow the Zephyr.
4 Next 6 months + controls turn outs. Zephyr can do that with no mods.
5 Next 6 months as well, load new sounds to the engines. You will need the sound loading interface hardware for what ever brand of sound decoders you have that have sound load capability. Right now this would mean different hardware for Digitrax Sound FX as well as the Loksound decoders. This would be the issue regardless of what DCC system you have.
6 Up grade power if or when I need it. (bachmann E-Z 1 amp has ran 5 BLI with sound) You can add a booster to the Zephyr, there are several to choose from.
7 Soon Walk around control or Radio controleed. Just add the radio reciever to the loconet connection and get a radio throttle and you are off.
8 In the next year, have the PC run the engines so I can sit back a
When I added up the Zephyr and the power requirements as well as the preference for a DT 400 Im already in Chief country financially. The only expense ahead of me is radio and that is in the future.
Dont worry about the cars. I have mine paid for long time ago and except for occaisonal maintaince and problem spots such as a bad heater fan… from time to time we are doing good. Especially in this age of financing and other gimmicks designed to part you from your money. We are motivated towards being debt free and will hold our mortgage burning this month. That does not mean we have more dollars for trains. =)
We know the future purchases of autos will be cash only upfront. That way it’s paid for the moment we put tags on it and that is the way we have always done it. I was burned badly on a new car years ago and knowing what I know now, I would have maintained that old car I sent to the trade too quickly.
The Zephyr will serve you will as does the Chief, dont let the functions F9 and higher be your sole consideration for getting the Chief.
Dont rely too much on the computer. I just came back online after a hard disk failure compounded by a video card failure over the weekend. I was running on spares from the second machine until new parts came in.
Why? Just because some have larger numbers in their specs. What function do you need above F9? I hardly ever use anything except 1-4.
you realize that the Zephyr has two “jump” ports that allow you to connect two regular DC throttles (including hand held and/or radio too) to control the DCC locomotives.
Huh? This isn’t a function of the command unit.
There is a thread over in the layout forum concerning this. It could be interesting reading before you really decide to do this.
That is my only argument against the Digitrax, one is pretty much stuck with their radio system. But if the ultimate goal is to have the computer run the trains why are these needed?
95% sure this is the way I will go. What I did not like is the lack of F9 and above fuctions. Now here is what I want to be able to do and way furtuer.
1 Soon, be able to get to F-8 fuctions and above with a extra hand held controler.
I agree with Texas Zepher. Why do you think you need more than 9 functions? I used to think this too but soon found out F0 - F8 is plenty.
3 Some what soon. Be able to control 20 engines + with extra controler.
Are you really going to run 20 at the same time? Or, will some be consisted together? Not sure what your layout will look like but trying to run 20 at the same time will be a wild deal! Or, maybe you plan to have several operators? If so, you will need several extra controllers.
4 Next 6 months + controls turn outs.
You would have to add DT400 throttles (approx. $179) as UT4’s don’t throw turnouts.
7 Soon Walk around control or Radio controleed.
You’re probably aware that you can only control 2 locos at at time with a DT400 radio throttle. You have to “plug in” if you want to change to any other locos. I know you’re pretty well sold on Digitrax and that’s fine, but, be aware that with NCE PowerCab with a 3 amp booster you can immediately have walk-around capability, and, it’s upgradeable to radio with no “plug-ins”.
3 amp PowerCab with walk-around would be about $248 wheras 2.5 amp Zepher with DT400 walk-around about $299. Of course you have to add cost of plug in stations for both.
Now if you decide against throwing turnouts from your walk-around throttle, the Zepher + UT4 would be about $225.
If invited to operate on a layout with DCC, I try to have my DT400 ready with me. No need to burden the Layout owner with having to buy several throttles for occasional use only several times a year.
If you’re planning on just being able to get a program to run the layout, you better do some more planning. Our LHS has a display layout that is automated, and according to the owner the program alone was $400. (Can’t remember the name, but it was from Germany.) Then he had toalso install a detection system, interfaces, stationary decoders for the turnouts, etc and then spend over 30 hours programming in the sequences, (ie the routes), so the whole setup would work. Overall he said he spent over $1500.00 just to get three trains to run in a cycle without running into each other. This layout BTW, is a simple folded oval, with six sidings total.
Automating a layout using a computer is not a simple plug and play procedure.
Do some more research, especially regarding layout automation. You may find that its more trouble (and money?) than its worth.
One more comment regarding the number of functions needed. While most of the time I only use F0 - F4 and F8 (I use F8 to mute sound when not needed), I have to say that I’m glad I do have all 13 functions on my system for the following reasons. And these reasons may only apply to a few:
On QSI sound diesels, F9 is used to lower the sound to a low volume idle. And then with further clicks it shuts down the sound completely. The benefit of this shut-down over the F8 mute is that when you power down the system and then power back up, the F9 shut-down keeps the sound from coming on. When F8 is used to mute, on power up the sound comes on even though the sound had been previously muted. This is one annoying aspect of my system because every sound unit turns on when the track power is turned on.
Some MRC decoders use F12 to mute sound. But double-clicking F0 will do the same thing. So that’s no problem except that I have one loco with a flashing beacon on top of the cab that is operated by double clicking F0. So, for this loco, I have to use F12 to mute. Of course this is my own fault for buying a loco with this set-up, and for buying MRC decoders.
So I can program with the Zepher. Why would I need to read feed back anyway?
So if I add the DT 400 I can still only run 10 engines then. Reson why I asked is not becuause I want to run 20 at the same time, 3 is a hand full on the B line and 4, well talk about being keept on your toes! I don’t want to have to change address all the time when I want to run a driffrent engine. Or am I confussing address with cab’s?
Main reason I asked about computer control is it is hard to match speeds to keep one engine from catching the other one. If the new DCC will help with that then I don’t need the computer set up.
On the F fuctions, got to hear the other sounds that the BLI have. All so going try the new Bachmann with sound so I want to make sure I can hear all there is to hear.
Thanks for all the answer’s. Off to K-10 trains and check out some prices.
Ken, believe me, having CV read back is well worth having. The Zephyr has read back capability.
The DT 400 when connected to the Zephyr does not increase the number of slots, so yes, you can only have up to 10 locos selected at one time. If you think about it, the DT400 has 2 controls, the Zephyr has 1 and if you use the Jump ports with some DC packs you have 2 more so you would have a total of 5 throttles to run locos. It really is not a big deal to switch address on either the Zephyr or the DT400 so I would not be too concerned about the need to change address.
Speed matching is not particularly hard to do, to get it close enough for MU. A PC interface and access to a program like Decoder Pro makes it much easier IMO.
I’m off to K-10 as well this afternoon to pick up some strip wood I ordered. Maybe see you there.
Yes. It is nice to know what is in the decoder CV to start with, just in case one wants to put it back how it was.
You would have to do this with any system you choose. That is what multiple throttles are for. I’ve seen people controlling multiple trains with a single throttle. It looks more like they are playing a video game than running a locomotive, AND they still often send the wrong command to a train.
Any DCC system will allow you to program the speed curves in all the locomotives to be identical speed on a given throttle setting. This is a lot of work, it doesn’t happen automagically. I can’t think of how a computer controlling the train would help with this anyway. The computer would have to have feedback of where the locomotive was and where all the others were two. That gets into signaling systems.
Just because there isn’t a function key for a sound doesn’t mean you can’t hear it. My BLIs squeek their brakes all the time without me having to press F7 to do it manually. Controlling them all individually might keep one entertained for 30 minutes or so. There is a reason that Tsunami moved the coupler-clank from F3 to F12, like, no one uses it on purpose. Of course I find it scarry that they now have to have two but
I’m a computer geek. I loved the idea of using my computer to control a layout and run multiple trains.
Then I started adding up the cost of setting up the layout to do this. You can buy one heck of a computer for the price of organizing a large layout with the detection and what not. >$1500 quickly.
Then I looked around at some automated software. That makes the setup look inexpensive, and seems to be less than reliable.
Comments such as ‘sometimes it works great, other times one train will run for a bit, quit, and then 15 min later start up’ don’t exactly instill confidence in the ‘kick back and watch it go’
Plus honestly for me the ‘fun’ is doing it with a throttle in hand, not watching a movie. There are computer programs for under $50 that you can set stuff up and ‘watch it go’
Hey Ken, I was at K-10 this afternoon. Got involved in an impromptu operating session for a family that had come over from MO to see the layout. I dropped in on the way back from picking the kids up from school for what should have been 5 min and ended up staying there for over and hour! Sorry I missed you, I was looking forward to possibly meeting you.
Ken: I know that you may have very good reasons for going with the Zepher. But whether of not that’s a good deal may depend on how you do it. If , for budget reasons, you’re going to start with just the Zepher and work your way up the upgrade ladder later then that makes a lot of sense. But, if your going to add the DT400 right away I have the following question:
Got to thinking about this and must wonder why one would want to spend $299 (plus shipping) for a 2.5 amp system when they could get a top of the line 5 amp walk-around system for $310, including power supply (plus shipping)???
Lenz Set 100 offers the following:
5 amp system. As much as many of us will ever need.
Terrific “Dispatcher’s” throttle (LH100). Tethered for walk-around, good display, easy to handle with nice sized buttons and easy to learn.
Quick two train control with one key press to toggle back and forth between two locos.
Call up as many locos as you want in the stack (up to 256). Toggle thru the list and press enter to control. All previously set attributes are still there. Don’t have to dispatch any unless you want to simplify the list.
Two push-button speed controls, one single step and one multi-step.
FO - F12 functions and can run DC locos on address 0.
Easy, quick consisting. Doesn’t matter in what order locos are added or deleted. Can quickly toggle thru each loco in the consist to control the consist from that loco or to operate any functions.
Programming, system settings, etc., all easy to do with simple
One thing that seems to confuse people (and it didn’t help that the chart they had nearly full page in MR a few months ago had a misprint that FURTHER added to the confusion) is the concept of addresses in DCC. There are over 9000 POSSIBLE addresses in DCC. However, each different system can only address a certain subset of those addresses AT ONE TIME. So no matter if your system can address 1 or 120 at a time, you can own an unlimited number of DCC locomotives. Even have them all sittign on the track at the same time. But each system will only allow you to control a certain maximum number at a time, assuming you have enough power and space to run them.
One thing with Digitrax that seems a bit unique compared to other systems is that there is no correlation between the number of locos you can run simulataneously and the number of throttles hooked up. FOr example, if you had enough power, and enough room, you could take a Super Chief set, which can address up to 120 locos at the same time, and run all 120 with just a single throttle. Good luck keeping them from crashing into one another, since only two would be under actual control and the rest would be running free on whatever the last command they got was. Obviously this is an extreme example but on a smaller scale - I have 3 total throttle knobs. The one on my Zephyr, and the two knobs on my DT400. I’ve tried and on my layut I can’t run more than 8 without them getting into each other, but that’s 5 left to circulate while I actively control 3 of them. Or I could hook up 5 DT400’s and run 10 locos all under direct control. Or 10 DT400’s and run 10 locos, just one per DT400 instead of two.
I don’t know that you’d outgrow a Zephyr that fast. Unless you make the layout a whole lot bigger, 10 trains at a time is probably more than can really fit, without accidents. Even if others come over an run traisn with you. And if you DO eventually need more, the beauty is you can add on a piece at a time to mak
Simon, you meet me! I was the fat guy dressed in black and look like a bum. Brown on my sweet pants is plaster from my new moutain.
I was glad you and the kids where there. I hardly ever get to be there when Ken runs the bench with the hours I work. Now if Phillip only learns to enjoy slow speeds.
These thoughts of having many engines running around the system is too much. It is one thing to get 4 F ABBA together and press “Mush” while they walk off working together chanting under the 2+ amp load fed by a BIG power supply.
Quite another to get all the engines out of the boxes and set up on the track. What is this? A Club?
Digitrax uses a Loconet where if you are connected to it either by tether or by radio you are part of the system. It does not care who has what driving so and so down the track. But you are going to learn that occasionally the engine will miss the last packet command and keep chugging when you are trying to stop it.
Or worse have engines in a consist and then broken up and set out and all respond instantly to one command because you forgot to de-consist them.
I for one enjoy the convience of keeping bazillion address numbers in the system and only have to call them up by looking at the side of the cab for the number. But have to ask… why are we trying to run all 10+ trains at once? Are we on some kind of mega 120+ car drag that needs to be carried over 10% doomsday mountain grade in a 100 square foot room?
Eventually you will have alot of engines. That is one commandment of Model Railroading. it would be very nice if all your engines have a electonic address reserved for just that one engine.
Ken,
You can have 1000 engines on a Zephyr-powered layout if you want. But you can only have 10 active addresses in use at any one time. Digitrax systems have 5 different modes or states that a decoder address or “slots” can be in:
In Use - actively being used by a throttle and updated by the system (takes up slot)
Common - not being used by a throttle, but is updated by the system (takes up slot)
Top of Consist - system keeps track of this address (takes up slot)
Part of Consist - system keeps track of this address (takes up clot)
Idle - not being used by a throttle, not consisted, not being updated by the system (no slot)
Note that number’s 1 through 4 take up an active slot. Only “Idle” does not. To prevent needlessly taking up slots, break MU’s after using them, deselect locos after using them, and make sure that throttles are at 00% and that all functions are turned off before deselecting addresses. If you do so, that address will now be “Idle”.
To get around the 10 slot limit, you can use what’s called “basic” consisting, where you program, say, a 4-unit set to all the same address. Using CV29, you can set some units to run backwards while others run forwards. I’ve only done this once on my layout with a 4-car Budd RDC train that stays together most of the time, but it works well. Using this “basic” consisting, the limit isn’t the slots, it’s the 2.5 amp power supply…and using modern models, that’s a lot of engines (less for s
Very good answer you have given. It is amazing how “myths” perpetuate esp about DCC and its various brand names. In another forum several days ago, someone stated he didn’t like Digitrax because he didn’t want to have to program in Hex! Good Grief! I owned an Empire Builder with the old DT-100 throttle for seven years before I got a Super Chief and I NEVER programmed in hex, neither did I have to sell my first born to the devil to consist locos either, the way some folks have you to believe how “hard” Digitrax is to use.
The important thing is that the differences between the most popular TOTL systems nowadays is no longer technical, but simply esthetic or ergonomic. They all do what each other does just as easy and just as well. Anything that doesn’t involve direct operation of a locomotive in any DCC system is what we call here a “fiddle with”. Thats something that is not really necessary for the smoothe operation of a loco or locos. Here’s an example: Lenz’s stack of 256 stored addresses. So what? If you have to push that button to scroll thru the stack more than the first 6 numbers, it has become a “fiddle with”. Because with the same amount of button pushes (6), with for example a DT-400, I’ve chosen and starting running a loco while you’re still there “fiddling” with the stack. Thats why I ask someone whose wants advice on what system to buy is, “Whats the most popular sytem used in your area?” If you don’t know ask your MR buddies, your LHS. (Unless you are really the only MRR for 100 miles around, then it doesn’t matter what system you use.)
If you are like the vast majority of MRR’s, (social animals), going with the most popular system in your area provides probably the most important aspect of n