To clarify what I am trying to ask in the title… I have been wondering do we need more mainline steam programs/restorations than what we currently have going on right now? With the success of Big Boy this week I have been starting to wonder, “what’s next?” and I began to sort of tally in my mind some of the ‘big steam’ that has ran mainline runs in the last ten years or so, or is currently under restoration/replication. To sort of show what I mean a list of ongoing programs I can think of include:
UP Steam (UP 844, UP 4014 both under steam; with UP 3985 sidelined for possible rebuild down the line)
Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation (SP 4449 operational, SPS 700 and ORN 197 under restoration/rebuild)
ATSF 3751 (rebuild)
ATSF 2926 (restoration)
Milwaukee Road 261 (operational last I heard)
Iowa Interstate (two operational QJ locomotives)
Ft. Wayne Railroad Historical Society Nickel Plate 765 (operational)
NW 611 (operational)
Altoona Memorial Museum PRR 1361 (restoration)
T1 Locomotive Trust (recreation project)
Western Maryland Scenic 1309 (restoration… I don’t know if this will ever see ‘mainline’ service but I think its worth mentioning due to its sheer size)
Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum Southern 630 (operational, last used on mainline under former 21st Century Steam program)
Nashville Steam Preservation Society 576 (restoration)
Looking at this current list, I really am struggling to think of ‘that many’ more steam engines to pick for restoration that I think could make strong candidates for such a program. If we go the replica route I think a NYC Hudson would be a strong candidate but I wouldn’t dare suggest it take priority until the PRR T1 is finished and has proven its worth. As for mainline steam that is currently preserved the candidates seem really small… CP 2860, Reading 2101, TP 610, NW 1218, CO 614, etc. come to mind
As far as I’m concerned the more steam restorations the better!
However, there’s one caveat as far as I’m concerned. There has to be a place to run them, otherwise it’s best to just go the cosmetic restoration route and call it a day. It makes no sense to spend millions on a full-blown return-to-service restoration just to have the locomotive puttering along a mile or two of track.
The same would apply to replicas, or to be fair, “new productions.”
In my opinion, the only reason ‘not’ to restore to operation (or at least preserve the mechanical working parts in full good condition, not just painted over or allowed to rust internally) is if it distracts funds or effort from other valuable activities that are actually funded or conducted if the restoration is scaled back to cosmetic-only.
I don’t agree with the cosmetic-only restoration of PRR 460, but care was taken there to preserve all the working parts effectively.
Something that is very true is that, with the current FRA part 230 and the 1372-day inspection requirements, even if there is a full mechanical restoration it may not ‘pay’ to complete some of the steps to operability, most particularly putting flues and solid tubesheets in the locomotive. This comes more under the heading of ‘stabilizing’ the locomotive, but at a more complete state of repair than the usual kind of cosmetic restoration (especially one that leaves the locomotive in worse shape or more exposed than it was before). Even there, quite a bit of the effort may go away: at least one of the locomotives from the ATSF collection, and B&LE 643, are almost-operable examples subsequently reduced to a parlous state.
In the wake of some of the groundwork done by the T1 Trust, it becomes a matter of relatively small opportunity cost to have a Niagara instead of a Hudson. The problem is that the J1e is almost the quintessential railfan’s example of a famous locomotive that got away, and it’s very, very difficult to say that a Niagara has the same implicit magic. (If it’s a question of a J3 vs. Niagara, not nearly as much of an issue, except perhaps to those who want a streamlined engine, which to my knowledge no one actually starting a new Hudson has considered doing.)
Hard to think of anywhere you couldn’t fit a Niagara with a little additional tinkering to lateral motion devices and rear tender axles… of course,
I completely agree, in the long term it is far easier and cheaper to keep something in operational condition as opposed to allowing it to deteriorate and then attempt a restoration later. This goes for diesels and cars as well as steam.
Your list does miss a few other mainline steam engines undergoing restoration at the moment…and I realize it wasn’t meant to be a comprehensive list. So I’d say that any mainline engine that can be restored should be restored…there are plenty of Regional/Class 2 carriers that could easily host mainline steam, they would just need to be convinced of the benefits.
P.S. - There’s a Mexican Niagara at the New Hope and Ivyland in PA.
I don’t mean to rain on the parade, but one major issue is being avoided. There is only a finite amount of money available for these restorations. I hate to think of the number of restorations of any type of locomotive or cars that were never completed because the money ran out. Somebody has to be the villain and ask: Are the cost estimates reasonably accurate and do we have enough cash to get the job done?
After you get the ‘experts’ estimate of the cost of restoration - multiply it by 10 and then look at you funding sources, if they fall short you don’t have enough funding to proceed. Restorations - of anything - always cost vastly more than the original estimate.
Before you begin a restoration - make sure you have a written agreement with some rail property that will agree to let the machine operate on their property. Class 1’s aren’t big on letting steam operating on their properties. While the UP does operate their own steam, I doubt they are so accepting of other parties steamers.
They are great to watch, but at what point do we hit the saturation point? There are only so many poeple willing to invest/donate and, how much of the general public even cares? To most, a train is just a train!!
And thank you for spelling its name correctly. (Technically it should be “Niágara”, as with the Brazilian 4-8-4s in Portuguese, but I am generally too lazy to mess with accents on keyboard layouts…)
It’s in what I consider remarkably ‘restorable’ shape, too, and is a nifty size for practical excursion work. It does have to be said that Dixie 576 is reasonably close to the dimensions, and that’s being restored and will be operated ‘for sure’ so there is less urgency about doing the work – but I would happily commute up to work on stabilizing it if we can get a ‘quorum’ together, and supplies and tool access from NH&I or other local source…
Now, without laughing too hard (and carefully dodging any ‘heritage’ issues including those from south of our famous wall border) it should be possible to re-create most of the technological improvements that made the NYC Niagara so stunning an advance on the somewhat sow’s-ear D&H and CRI&P locomotives from which it was derived. The T1 Trust is essentially ‘commoditizing’ the design and provision of the necessary lightweight rods and other reciprocating components; the drivers are of a construction amenable to proper balancing; implementing proper lateral control for higher speed will require some care and new components, but is scarcely ‘a drop in the bucket’ of overall rebuilding expense. And much of the ‘optimization’ of the steam delivery system to accommodate low NYC clearances does not need to be as slavishly replicated…
Be interesting to have two 110mph-capable 70"-drivered Northerns running, wouldn’t it? [}:)]
(Of course, this whole idea has been roundly disparaged and despised on RyPN, and I can’t say I blame them.)
Lots of people questioned the necessity of funding NASA after the goal of reaching the moon had been accomplished. But stop and think for a moment. There are thousands of devices and materials in your life today that were direct byproducts of our efforts to explore space. OK, the world could probably survive just fine without mylar party balloons, but how many of us want to go back to life without smoke detectors?
In a similar sense, locomotive restoration products generate byproducts. Although they are much more intangible and thus exponentially more difficult to quantify. But chief among them are experience and a type of knowledge that will be lost without real life hands-on experience. If we want future generations to experience live steam locomtives, we have to keep them going so today’s children can become tomorrow’s mentors.
I recall a conversation with some of the guys in the UPRR Steam Crew; and the question a railfan put to Steve Lee, in regards to UPRR putting a Big Boy back on the rails ‘running’. Response was " It will not happen"…BUT Here we are in 2019, and it DID HAPPEN! [<:o)]
SO! Here we are, and in that vein: HOW ABOUT #1218 ? “My memory of #1218 and her paricipation in the events of the 90’s, and specifically, the triple-head train from Chattanooga to Atlanta with J-611,A-1218, and M-4501, and train of some 25 passenger cars…” It sure would be nice to see #1218 polishing the rails again.
Corporate sponsorship is helpful, as shown by three large steam locomotives on UP. Unfortunately, it’s quite uncommon and money for restorations will always be tight. Another factor that hasn’t been mentioned is the cost of maintenance and upkeep. There have been any number of locomotives that were fully restored, made a handful of trips and were never heard from again as operating locomotives.
The analogy with the space program is flawed for a variety of reasons, primarily over the source of funding and the value of spinoffs.
Much of the occasionally-vicious controversy over the ‘recent’ UP steam shop (and its occasional foibles) that continues to this day in places like RyPN concerns Steve Lee’s somewhat autocratic ways regarding “his” program. I think he’s notorious for ensuring that Cotton Belt 819 would remain idle even for ferry moves following UP’s acquisition of SP in the mid-Nineties, too.
I don’t think Penny intended to draw more of an explicit ‘comparison’ with the space program than to note that spinoff benefits exist from both, and can be substantial and not directly predictable from an initial ‘practical’ analysis.
It seems to be getting a little fashionable to bash Steve Lee lately, not from all quarters of course, but from some quarters.
Quite honestly, it’s due to Big Steve’s efforts and in-house corporate politicking that the UP steam program survived as long as it did. Could he done things differently? Possibly, but I’m not one for “Monday-morning quarterbacking.”
If he wasn’t interested in restoring a Big Boy it’s because he had his hands full for so many years keeping what he had. The case had to be made every year for keeping the steam program alive, there were plenty of others in the UP who wanted the money spent on other things.
And remember, Steve could have walked away any time he wanted to.
Leave Steve alone.
Before we critisize anyone involved in steam restoration or preservation, we’d all do well to remember the wise words of President Theodore Roosevelt…
And concerning N&W 1218? Anything’s possible of course, but remember my comment where I mentioned “…a place to run?” There’s the rub! Mighty 611 has a problem with that now, “All dressed up and no place to go.” Certainly there’s the Strasburg gig coming up, and than goodness for it, but running on Strasburg’s nine mile 'road is hardly a demonstration of 611’s capabilities. Still, it’s better than nothing.
It just makes no sense to put a ton of money into 1218 at this time. At least it’s under cover and cared for instead of rotting away.
Reading back in this Thread… Let me state that my comment re:a conversation with Steve Lee. I absolutely, meant no disrespect to either the UPRR Steam Crew[Program!] or to Steve Lee.
His statement was made in the context of #3985 which had lost its’ smokebox ‘draft nozzle’, and was laid-over in Memphis,Tn,; while in-transit to run as Clinchfield RR#676, for the CRR’s 50th Anniversary{1992] Christmas Santa Special in the Kingsport, Tn area.
Steve Lee was ‘on the ground’ with the puiblic, and Steam Crew for close to 48 hours, while #3985 was cooled down, and her smokebox opened for the repair to be made. He was a real ambassador for the UP and the Steam Crew, and he fielded a barrage of all sorts of questions from the by-standing crowd there, at the site of the L&N’s old Lenox Station { at the junction at the Eastern end of former MoPac and then CSX track }. Not only did they accomplish the repair, but the engine was refuled by tanker trucks, and the Fire Dept provided water for the locomotive as well. It was a really interesting couple of days!
Oh, I’m sure you didn’t Sam. The thing is, as the time has gone by since Steve’s retirement I’m struck, if not amused, by the change in attitudes toward him, as I said, from some quarters.
Back in 2008 with his retirement from UP imminent the concern in the railfan world was the UP steam program was going to fall apart without him, he’d been such a driving force and the “face” of the program for so long. He assured his followers and fans that wasn’t going to happen, and it didn’t.
Seems in some people’s minds the attitude’s gone from “Steve Lee can do no wrong” to “Steve did a good job, BUT…”
I suppose getting a concensus from railfans is like herding cats.
Anyway, I rmember Ed Dickens getting grief from some people when he took over the program, but now post-Big Boy restoration he’s a hero! Oh well.
General Patton said it best, “This is the craziest country in the world! We love to put people up on pedestals, and then we love to knock 'em off!”