Passenger Trains between Minneapolis and Chicago.

Yes, a lot of trains. But not if you compare with NY - Washington during the same period. Hourly service 6am-8pm on the PRR, plus eight B&O trains, plus the through trains to Florda and other southern points.

True, but NY and Washington were a lot larger and had more major businesses (not to mention the government offices in DC) than the Chicago-TC.There were more Chicago-TC trains than between other prominent cities such as Houston-Dallas, LA-SF, and even Chicago-St Louis all which were close to the same distances between each.

My 1964 OG doesnt indicates that CRIP didnt make it easy to travel from Twin Cities to Chicago. It could be done:

Lv Mpls on Twin Star Rocket at 1115am

Ar DesMoines 432pm

Lv Des Moines Train 6 805pm

Ar Chicago 430 am

Train 6 had coaches only and obviously was a mail train.

Why so many trains between Chicago/Twin Cities? If you wanted to go to the Pacific Northwest during the 40s or 50s you pretty much had to go by train and thru the Twin Cities. So, not only did you have the regional trains, but also the long distance trains passing thru.

Ed

Chicago-Twin cities also had a lot of intermediate traffic. Houston-Dallas had 4-6 trains a day (SP and Burlington-Rock Island), LA-SF had around 10 depending on how you count (3-4 SP coast, 2-3 SP valley, 3 ATSF valley along with assorted mail trains) and Chicago-St. Louis had about a dozen ( 4 Alton, 3 IC, 3 Wabash, 2 C&EI)

I have always been curious about that myself.

It seems that MLPS/StP was a major chokepoint for RR routes back then. Not only did Chi-Stl trans pass thru but also Chicago-Winnipeg, MB trains as well. Before the '70’s, Winnipeg was the business capitol of western Canada, from Lake Superior out to the Continental Divide. Not counting all stops locals, there were almost as many trains from Winnipeg down to Chicago as out to Vancouver, BC. These trains were patronized by business travelers as well as upper crust Winnipegers looking for a quick visit to the big city of Chicago.

Winnipeg and Chicago had similar business activities; Grain Exchanges, Financial institutions, Retail and Manufactured Goods distribution centres, and major railway operations.

What was the going concern in the Twin Cities?

Bruce

Having put my collection of Guides in order, I checked the Rock Island representation in the August, 1968, issue. There was no connection in Des Moines for service Chicago/Twin Cities. It was possible to leave Chicago at 9:10 am, arrive in Des Moines at 4:00 pm and change for Kansas City, arriving in Kansas City at 8:45 pm. Also, you could leave Minneapolis at 10:45 am. arrive in Des Moines at 4:15 pm, change, and arrive in Omaha at 8:00 pm. I was mistaken in my previous post.

The reverse connections gave these schedules; leave Kansas City at 8:45 am, arrive in Des Moines at 1:05 pm, change for Chicago, arriving at 8:40 pm, leave Omaha at 10:30 am, arrive in Des Moines at 1:10 pm, change, and arrive in Minneapolis at 7:30 pm.

The North Western was out of the Twin Cities-Omaha traffic by then, but it was still possible to use the Rock.

I read this a long time ago - maybe 20 years ago - so it might not be true now, but I read that at that time there were more commuter flights between the Twin Cities and Chicago than between any other two places; and that 50 years before, there were more passenger trains between the Twin Cities and Chicago than between any two other places.

I think a lot of it is people from Mpls/St.Paul going to Chicago. If you were a businessman in the 1930’s, there’s a good chance your company’s headquarters or regional HQ was in Chicago. Plus many companies were based in New York, and to get there from here, you had to change trains in Chicago. Couple that with people going west from Chicago to Seattle, and all the people from North Dakota, Montana, and Idaho going to Chicago and vice-versa, and it works out to be a lot of people.

Remember too there were I think 9 inter-state railroads serving the Twin Cities. From here, if your railroad didn’t reach Chicago, it was kind of “second rate” so most every railroad tried to compete for Chicago traffic.

There also was a lot of mail and express between the two areas. Any mail from the east going to Minnesota, ND

Folks & gentry,

One Rock Island routing that hasn’t been mentioned, and good until the later 1960’s, would have been using the Zephyr Rocket Minneapolis to West Liberty, IA, then transfer to RI headend train #2. This connection was sometimes shown in public timetables.

Another interesting tidbit is the fact that C&NW/ Omaha Road ran Twin Cities-Chicago via two different routes: via Milwaukee and via Madison. Even in the mid 1950’s there were two trains on each route and after a while connecting service between the original 400 and the Dakota 400 that provided Twin Cities-Madison-Chicago streamliner service with a change at Wyeville.

I believe there’s some misunderstanding about the size and importance of the Twin Cities back in the day. In the 1930’s Minneapolis had well over 400,000 people and St. Paul over 300,000, not counting suburbs. That made it larger than most metro areas, including St. Louis, Cinncy, Pittsburgh,Buffalo, KC, Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, etc that later mushroomed in size. The Twin Cities were the home town of GN, NP, Soo Line, CGW (which started there), M&StL , Omaha Road and several short lines, not to mention 3M, Pillsbury, General Mills, IBM (I think), Minneapolis Moline, etc, etc .It was, and largely still is, the banking, marketing and logistics center for much of the midwest and is the last big city until you reach the west coast, 1800 miles away. Large concetrations of educational and medical providers reside there as well. Lots of reasons to run trains there.

Regards,

Benny Peters

Benny:

The Zephyr Rocket out of Mpls was one route I did not think about. I remember seeing “ZR” equipment on track one at the MILW depot in Minneapolis. That train had two sets of equipment, one RI and the other one CBQ. It seems like both railroads used their oldest diesels on those runs.

As information, the train tracks area of the former depot are an ice skating rink.

Ed Burns

It was possible to take the Zephyr Rocket from Minneapolis to Waterloo Iowa and connect to the IC’s Hawkeye to Chicago in the early 1960’s. Unless you were a railfan why would you? Both the Blackhawk and Pioneer Limited offered excellent service overnight to Chicago. Also, the population of Minneapolis was 521,000 and St Paul was 314,000, in 1950. The area was the thirteenth largest metro area in the United States; not exactly podunk.

You are probably thinking of Honeywell or CDC, both of which were computer companies. IBM has always been in the New York area.

Boot Camp & 1yr. at Great Lakes. Used to take the train from Nora Springs, IA to Chicago. Both ways, Wk. end Liberty. Had to hitchhike one time as missed connection in Waterloo…Bummer. But made it by 0800hrs.

Lived in Mason City, IA late 50’s early 60’s

A.R. Sibert

Good Forum…

Always wondered if Amtrak or the Milwaukee Road ran a Twin Cities to Chicago train, via Milwaukee, on May 1 and/or 2, 1971. The last railroad-operated Morning Hiawatha should have run on April 30. The first Amtrak Empire Builder, which left Seattle on the 1st, did not reach & depart Minneapolis until the 3rd. The last eastbound BN-operated versions of the Builder & the North Coast Limited ran combined on the 1st & 2nd, but obviously not via Milwaukee. Anybody know? Thanks!

AR: And between Chicago and Great Lakes?

Benny Peters:
You are absolutely correct regarding the West Liberty transfer per Oct, 1964 Official Guide:

Lv Mpls 330pm on Train 19

Ar. West Liberty at 1116pm

Lv West Liberty at 1128 on Train 6 (coach only)

Ar. Chicago 430am

This is an improvement on my earlier listing of leaving Mpls at 1115am and arriving at 430am.

Via Waterloo:

Lv Mpls 330pm on Train 19

Ar. Waterloo 857pm

Lv Waterloo 1115pm on IC Train 12 (Hawkeye)

Ar. Chicago 615am

The OG does not have Rock Island fares, but for IC it was $8.35 from Waterloo to Chicago. Pullman Roomette rate was $8.10. Was the $8.10 in addition to the $8.35 coach fare?

Obviously the transfer at West Liberty was tight, so perhaps the Waterloo connect would have been superior, in that one could grab a bite to eat, and then sleep in a Roomette with arrival in Chicago at 615am ready to see the Windy City.

Lots of mail and express moving between Chicago and Twin Cities and beyond.

Ed

Ed, the Pullman fare for the roomette definitely was in addition to the rail fare–which probably was more than the $8.35 (or was this quoted as being the first class railfare?). By 1964, some roads, such as the KCS, were charging no more rail fare for first class travel than for coach travel, but most still had two tariff structures, one for coach and one for first class.

Had to be either the CNW or North Shore.

Mark

yes, but which?

You could take the Zephyr-Rocket a bit further south to Columbus Jct, IA and connect with No. 40 on the Golden State Route. Without looking (I looked a while back, but didn’t post) I think the layover from the ZR’s arrival and No.40’s was something like 2 to 2 1/2 hours. Probably not much to do at Columbus Jct in the early morning hours though.

Jeff

If by “started there” you mean were founded in the Twin Cities, GN, Soo Line and M-St.L would be included too.

CDC is Control Data Corporation, I worked there in the 1980’s. Although I don’t think their HQ was here, Sperry-Univac had a plant here also.

Interesting to recall that one year in the sixties Minnesota lead the US in production of butter, wheat…and computers.