The Pennsylvania Railroads fleet of East/West passenger trains used to bypass 30th St Station in Phila. to and from Chicago using the “Pittsburgh Subway”. The only stop in Phila. was at North Phila. station; was this done to avoid having to turn the train? And when was this discontinued?
Not turn the train but not make a back up move in and out of 30th St. or reversing the train…Amtrak did reverse trains but PRR and PC avoided it if possible. So, probably North Philadelphia stopped intercity stops at the onset of Amtrak or soon thereafter. Today, only SEPTA stops there. Others can tell us about how Keystone trains to Harrisburg work…
According to the current Amtrak timetable. four Amtrak trains stop at North Philadelphia. Three Keystones (649, 653, & 655) stop to discharge passengers on their way from New York to Harrisburg; Northeast Regional 110 stops on its way from Washington to New York, and Keystone 640 stops on its way from Harrisburg to New York.
Since the power for the Pennsylvanian is changed at 30th Street and not in Harrisburg, the train comes into 30th Street under one type of power, which is cut off, and leaves under the other type, which is put on what had been the rear of the train. Someone who is familiar with the operation will have to tell us how the Keystone power is handled, but it seems to me that the engine would be run around the train at 30th Street (just as the engine was run around the San Francisco/California Zephyr when the train was operated into Cheyenne; the power was changed in Denver at that time, so it was not run around the train in Denver, even though the train ran backwards between Denver and Cheyenne; now the whole train is turned in Denver, both eastbound and westbound)
North Philadelphia was the principal stop in Philadelphia for most of the east/west fleet. Had they gone into 30th Street, presumably they would have had to back out or take the engine off the front of the train and put another one on the back, which amongst other things would mean that the coach passengers would have to ride backwards to New York. This is how Amtrak handles the Pennsylvanian. The Keystones are push/pull configurations, so no engine switch is required at 30th Street, which parenthetically is one of the most beautiful railroad stations in America.
The PRR’s east/west trains to New York were competing with the New York Central’s trains to and from Gotham. The last thing PRR management would have wanted was a backing operation in Philadelphia, thereby increasing the time to get to New York or points west of Philadelphia.
A quick check of Amtrak’s service from North Philadelphia to New York and return shows that Amtrak numbers 110 and 640 stop there in the morning to pick-up passengers for New York as well as intermediate stations. In the afternoon three southbound trains (Numbers 649, 653, and 655) stop at North Philadelphia to discharge passengers and pick up passengers for points west of 30th Street. Number 110 is a Northeast Regional; the other trains are Keystone services. Why a NE Regional stops there in the morning without a corresponding afternoon NE Regional train is unknown.
According to the 1953 PRR System Timetable The Philadelphia Night Express from Pittsburgh terminated at 30th Street, and the Pittsburgh Night Express began its run to Pittsburgh fr
At the dawn of Amtrak in 1971, the Broadway and National Limited still skipped 30th St. and used the connection at Zoo. If you wanted to go to Center City, the best option was to bail off at Paoli and take SEPTA the rest of the way in.
Somewhere in the early 80s, Amtrak started running the Washington section of the Broadway through 30th St. (up the NEC from Perryville - avoiding Conrail’s Port road - which was having the catenary removed.) Somewhere in the early 90s, the Washington section was killed (at the same time the Capitol Limited was put back on?) and the Broadway started calling on 30th St. It ran “backward” to and from NYP.
When 30th St was built, there were provisions to put a turning loop on the SE side of the station. In fact a tunnel w/o tracks for this can be seen when you arrive from the south on a suburban train to the upper level of 30th St. If it was completed, the E-W trains could arrive at 30th St., depart heading south, loop around on the other side of the Post Office and connect into the upper level approach (about where the University SEPTA station is, I think) and then continue west through the tunnel, departing the way the Mainline Suburban trains do.
Don, in 1978, I rode the Broadway from Chicago to Washington–and the Washington cars were split off at Harrisburg and went through 30th Street in Philadelphia whereas the New York cars used the Pittsburgh Subway.
In 1984, I rode the Broadway from Trenton to Chicago, stopping at 30th Street, and the Capitol Limited cars were added in Pittsburgh, making it possible to ride in a dome the rest of the way (I did get some sleep in my coach seat).
The Capitol Limited was a separate train in 1987, when I rode it round trip Chicago-Washington.
That is interesting about the proposed loop at 30th Street; apparently the decision was that even that would add too much time in compettion with the NYC.
Maybe it was the National Ltd that used the Port Road? I’ll have to dig out the old timetables.
In July of 1971, I rode from Washington, via the Port Road, to Jefferson City on what Amtrak called the Spirit of St. Louis (according to the original Amtrak timetable; I still have one copy of it). The train left Washington with cars for Chicago as well as for Kansas City; in Harrisburg cars for St. Louis that came from New York on the Broadway Limited were added to the Spirit of St. Louis, and the cars from Washington to Chicago were added to the Broadway. I am not sure as to when the name of the Kansas City train was changed to National Limited.
I had a roomette from Washington to St. Louis in the 10-6 Pacific Castle. The following year, my fianceé came to visit me, riding the Floridian from Chicago to Birmingham. I took the northbound Floridian up to Decatur, ate lunch, and boarded the southbound Floridian (surprising her when I appeared in her roomette door)–and we sat together, in Pacific Castle. Seventeen years later, we had a bedroom in Pacific Castle from Washington to Birmingham.
Thanks for your help in clearing up my question. So it seems that Amtrak continued skipping 30th St at least until some time in the 80’s. I rode the Broadway from Phila. (30th St) to Pittsburgh and back in 1988. I remember there was a change from electric to diesel before leaving 30th St; on the return, the train changed back to electrics at 30th St before proceeding to NY.
I wonder if that loop is rtechnically feasible now. If it could be done at all, it really would make alot of sense. They really should’ve built it back when provisions were first put in,
About present day ops in Philadelphia, somebody please get my back on this one, but… The last time I was over there (about 5 years ago) the Keystones were running in push mode with electric power (a.k.a. a “motor”) from Harrisburg into Philadelphia 30th Street Station. So when they then reversed direction at 30th St. for the rest of the run to New York, there was no need to move the power from one end to the other. The engine was already where it needed to be. However, the Pennsylvanian, #42, Pittsburgh - NYC, runs from Pgh to Philly under diesel power. As the diesel cuts off at 30th St. Station, a motor goes on the other end of the consist and then pulls it to New York. It’s the reverse for #43, NYC to Pgh.
Others have explained well how the PRR avoided a backing move and saved time by having trains to NYC from Harrisburg, Pittsburgh and points west avoid 30th St. and call only at North Philadelphia, via the “Pgh subway.” Had they called at 30th St. as well, you can imagine the traffic jams had they used Zoo Interlocking to wye around!
I rode the Broadway under Amtrak many times before it started calling at 30th Street, and rode the PRR through the “New York - Pittsburgh Subway” many times before Amtrak, often watchingt the engine change at Harrisburg. I once boarded the westbound General (after failing to get the duplex or romette on the Broadway) at North Philadelphia. Mostly, thought, I traveled from NYC.
You are correct. Keystones are push-pull. The cab cars are converted/demotored (original) Metroliner cars.
Dave Phelps
Are not some also demotored SPV’s? The “seldom propelled vehicle” successor to the Budd RDC, some bought by Metro North, some by Amtrak, and some by ConnDot?
All of Amtrak’s cab cars are demotored Metroliners.
I don’t believe any SPV’s live. They were scrapped in fear they might come back to live and haunt Amtrak and MNRR!
Another post in the forums mentions that the Philadelphia subway cut-off has not been used for some years. NEC trains destined for points west do a reverse move into 30th Street Station and continue to Harrisburg in push mode. I do not know if they use the same engine nor do I know if the cab car is added for the reverse move at Philadelphia or not. The seats in the coaches remain in the reverse position and passengers ride “backwards.”
Usual operation for Keystone NY - Harrisburg trains is a cab car on one end and an electric locomotive on the other end, with no change of power at 30th Street. The Pennsylvanian has an electric from NY to Philly, and it is cut off at the south end, while the diesels couple up on the north to pull the train west without engine change at Harrisburg.
A few SPV’s were converted into straight coaches, or their shells were used as replacements for wreck-damaged Amfleet coach shells.
I read the entire Pittsburgh Subway thread with interest. I too rode Amtrak’s Broadway several times in the mid-'70’s between Trenton, NJ and Fort Wayne, IN or Chicago using the Pittsburgh Subway. It is of interest to note that prior to the trackage changes in the Philadelphia area that culminated in the Zoo complex, all PRR East West trains ran backwards from NYC into old Broad Street station and reversed out to Chicago. In Lucius Beebe’s “Twentieth Century”, one can see a picture of no less than the early Broadway running behind steam, open-platform observation car first, to old Broad, where as Beebe said, an engine was coupled onto the rear and she ran “as God intended, baggage club first, to Chicago”. While that, as well, as the Amtrak Pennsylvanian reverse moves at 30th Street are a relative rarity here in the US, they are very commonplace in Europe, where many of the great stations are stub end jobs. One of the most spectacular is Stuttgart, Germany, with its approaches snaking in from four different elevations on a breathtaking maze of flyovers and duckunders. Typically, a train would pull in, the motor uncouple from the front end, a waiting motor couple on at the rear, and the train would move out in no more time than would be required in a straight-through move, reminiscent of the action at Harmon, NY, Manhattan Transfer or Harrisburg in the real heyday of the Century and the Broadway. Consequently, as man of you know or have seen in movies, European railway coach compartments or the more recent open seating coaches have equal numbers of seats facing in opposite directions. Also, public timetables will indicate with a footnote those stops where the train changes direction. On a longer run, that can happen more than once per trip. Of course with today’s European offsets to our Acela trainsets, stub station reversals are no big deal.