On the topic of “pool power”: I have heard that the RRs typically are short certain locomotives at certain times, so they have lease/usage arrangements with the other roads. Could the sighting of certain “foreign” engines at certain places or points signify a destination (if we didn’t already know it)? For example, the UP handles a lot of cross-border traffic for the CP at Eastport, ID, so if we saw an eastbound freight leaving, say, Portland, Oregon with two CP engines at the front of the train, could we assume it was going to Canada? Or if we saw a NS engine on the same train, could we assume it was going to Atlanta (or some other point on the NS system)? If two roads have an agreement to hand over traffic, is the actual locomotive (the crews are, of course) changed, or would the same UP engine be used all the way to Atlanta?
Also: I’m curious about how the rolling stock of very small, out-of-the-way RR’s can end up in places so far away from their home rails. For example, boxcars from the City of Prineville (the only municipally owned RR in the US, I believe, correct me if I’m wrong) can wind up somewhere around Denver, or the McCloud River RR rolling stock can be found in Pennsylvania. What kind of business arrangements govern the use and distribution of these cars? If a given RR, which owns X amt. of rolling stock, were to suddenly declare bankruptcy, wouldn’t it be their responsibility to “call in” all the stock with their names on it and have it physically returned back to the home rails? Don’t they at least have to keep the stock within a given geographical distance from their home rails?
Others can add more details, but there are zero fixed restrictions on how far an interchange freight car can travel from its “home” rails. The railroad using another railroad’s frieght car, whether for its own load or for a through carrying of freight from the home road, pays a fixed “per-diem” charge for the home road’s frieght car use. When the car is empty, the receiving road is supposed to TRY to load it with freight to return to the home road. If none is available, instructions from the home road usually indicate whether it is prefered to return it empty or to load with freight for some other destination.
Have seen the McCloud River cars all the way down here in Houston.
Dave pretty much covered the loading issue.
As for which railroads locomotive is leading giving an indication as to who or where…not really.
Though there are some places where a certain unit has to lead, say in cab signal areas.
Basicly, if we “borrow” say, UP power to use at my road, we owe UP however many hours we use the locomotive…they could, if they wanted to, demand we “lend” them one of our locomotives for the same amount of time…in reality, we pay them for the use.
But there is a agreement between certain roads that allows them to use each others locomotives under certain circumstances, and they pay each other back in locomotive hours or use.
Which unit leads is based more on the territory needs, as with the cab signals, and on the make up of the train, availability of power and such.
How do the railroads calculate the “hours” on a locomotive? Is it the hours the locomotive is on the property? Or, is there some sort of (taxi) meter, that is set when the locomotive is in use?
You can’t judge a book by it’s cover, or a train by the engines. I’ve seen NS power on a UP-CSX run thru before.
If your familiar with a certain location and traffic patterns, you might be able to tell where the train was going by the cars in it. Even that, is by no means foolproof.
There are basicly 2 situations when it comes to locomotives.
The first one is where there is a run through agreement and power is pooled. This typicly is between origin / destination pairs. Like the Eastgate / Portland trains on the UP. Each railroad would supply locomotives for a particular train or for the trains of a particular route. The perportion of units supplied would usually be a reflection of the percentage of the trains mileage on each railroad. In this case if you see a unit potash train in the george with 3 CP units on the front then it’s a safe bet it is going to or comming from Eastgate.
That’s not the main reason for seeing forign power though. Railroads borrow and loan out power all the time. That is a trend that seems to be happening more and more these days. How railroads keep ‘score’ is called “horse power hours”. If NS borrows a SD40-2 from UP then for every hour that locomotive is on NS rails NS will owe UP 3000 more horse power hours (3000 is the hp of a SD40-2). So if that SD40-2 is on NS rails for a day then NS would owe UP 72000 horse power hours. Now lets say the next day NS borrows a SD90MAC (6000 hp). For every day the 90 is on NS rails NS would owe UP 144000 horse power hours. Each railroads power desk keeps track of each other railroads horse power hour account. If an acount gets out of balance then the railroad in debt would have to send some units to the railroad that’s owed. The oweing railroad could send a bunch of units at once for a short period of time, or, more economicaly they would send a few units for a long period of time. A unit paying back horsepower hours could spend a while on the forign railroad. These units could be used however the power desk sees fit and therefore could end up in the furthest corners of the forign railroad. They may also be assigned to a certain service or geographic location. The oweing railroad may also choose to make financial restitution like Ed’s does.
In my previous posting, I should have pointed out that the per diem rate for each type of freight car varies with its design, intended use, and other characteristics. A car with roller bearings will obviously command a higher per diem than with old waste journal boxes (any still around?) A mechanical regrigorated car more than a straight boxcar of similar capacity. More for “damage-free” cushion drawbars and higher-speed stabilized trucks. I believe it is the AAR that has committee that established the rate for each type of car.
There are basicly 2 situations when it comes to locomotives.
The first one is where there is a run through agreement and power is pooled. This typicly is between origin / destination pairs. Like the Eastgate / Portland trains on the UP. Each railroad would supply locomotives for a particular train or for the trains of a particular route. The perportion of units supplied would usually be a reflection of the percentage of the trains mileage on each railroad. In this case if you see a unit potash train in the george with 3 CP units on the front then it’s a safe bet it is going to or comming from Eastgate.
That’s not the main reason for seeing forign power though. Railroads borrow and loan out power all the time. That is a trend that seems to be happening more and more these days. How railroads keep ‘score’ is called “horse power hours”. If NS borrows a SD40-2 from UP then for every hour that locomotive is on NS rails NS will owe UP 3000 more horse power hours (3000 is the hp of a SD40-2). So if that SD40-2 is on NS rails for a day then NS would owe UP 72000 horse power hours. Now lets say the next day NS borrows a SD90MAC (6000 hp). For every day the 90 is on NS rails NS would owe UP 144000 horse power hours. Each railroads power desk keeps track of each other railroads horse power hour account. If an acount gets out of balance then the railroad in debt would have to send some units to the railroad that’s owed. The oweing railroad could send a bunch of units at once for a short period of time, or, more economicaly they would send a few units for a long period of time. A unit paying back horsepower hours could spend a while on the forign railroad. These units could be used however the power desk sees fit and therefore could end up in the furthest corners of the forign railroad. They may also be assigned to a certain service or geographic location. The oweing railroad may also choose to make financial
There are basicly 2 situations when it comes to locomotives.
The first one is where there is a run through agreement and power is pooled. This typicly is between origin / destination pairs. Like the Eastgate / Portland trains on the UP. Each railroad would supply locomotives for a particular train or for the trains of a particular route. The perportion of units supplied would usually be a reflection of the percentage of the trains mileage on each railroad. In this case if you see a unit potash train in the george with 3 CP units on the front then it’s a safe bet it is going to or comming from Eastgate.
That’s not the main reason for seeing forign power though. Railroads borrow and loan out power all the time. That is a trend that seems to be happening more and more these days. How railroads keep ‘score’ is called “horse power hours”. If NS borrows a SD40-2 from UP then for every hour that locomotive is on NS rails NS will owe UP 3000 more horse power hours (3000 is the hp of a SD40-2). So if that SD40-2 is on NS rails for a day then NS would owe UP 72000 horse power hours. Now lets say the next day NS borrows a SD90MAC (6000 hp). For every day the 90 is on NS rails NS would owe UP 144000 horse power hours. Each railroads power desk keeps track of each other railroads horse power hour account. If an acount gets out of balance then the railroad in debt would have to send some units to the railroad that’s owed. The oweing railroad could send a bunch of units at once for a short period of time, or, more economicaly they would send a few units for a long period of time. A unit paying back horsepower hours could spend a while on the forign railroad. These units could be used however the power desk sees fit and therefore could end up in the furthest corners of the forign railroad. They may also be assigned to a certain service or geographic location. The oweing railroad may also c
Thanks for the answers…About the “leased” locos, such as the GM “Oakways” or the GE "LMX"s, let’s say, for example, that BNSF owed UP a certain amount of loco hours. Could they choose to pay UP back by letting them borrow a locomotive they (the BNSF) leased, or would they only be able to lend a BNSF loco?..Also, somewhat unrelated, but did GE make only LMX locomotives? I seem to recall a GE ad where some UP engines were featured (briefly) painted in the usual Armour yellow. As a business issue, wouldn’t it be simpler to have just one locomotive outlet? What would the rationale be?
No it doesn’t have to be a BNSF unit. They could use whatever they have available. They could even use units that another railroad sent them to pay back hours. If say UP owed NS and NS owed BNSF then the UP unit could be sent to BNSF.
The October 1985 issue of trains had an excellent article of the in’s and out’s of pooling power. It says this about the repair/maintenance issues. I am quoting (pgs 27-28)…
"Under the maintenance provisions of pooled-power agreements, a railroad usually preforms all amjor work required on its own units. A monetary limit on repairs served a dual purpose, (1) preventing a road charging an exhorbitant amount for work done, and (2) tending to equalize repair workload by ownership, keeping one road from shifting maintenance work on its units to another road. If an agreement has a $1000 dollar repair limit, for example, a foreign road cannot replace a $25,000 traction alternator without approval from the owner. In most situations, the owning road will not allow off-line major repairs, for both cost and labor-agreement reasons. Billing procedures for repairs are usually well defined with specifications for how new, as well as used, materials (e.g. wheels) are charged.
"The loss, damage, or destruction clause of a run-through agreement defines off-line responsibility. The horsepower-hour equalization charge usually continues while a unit is out of service owing to a wreck, but if a goes bad-order for a component failure (e.g. a connecting rod), the horsepower-hour count usually is halted to avaid charging the host railroad for a unusable visiting foreign unit. If the host road can put the foreign unit back in service with a minor, chargable repair, the meter starts ticking again.
“When an off-line unit succumbs in a wreck, the wreckee reimburses the owner for either the depreciated reproduction cost or the casualty value of the unit under any financing agreement for the locomotive, whichever is greater.” - J. David Ingles, Trains Magazine, October 1985 “Power Pools and Population- Diesels in Decline?” Pgs 24-30.