Hello, just joined this group, writing from Australia.
For those of you in the States, this may seem an obvious question, so bear with me. I have long been puzzled by the similarity between the two-tone grey colour scheme of both the 1938 20th Century Limited and the two tone grey used by Pullman after the company stopped painting rollingstock in green. I know they are not identical, but the colour schemes seem remarkably similar and I can’t imagine that the New York Central was too happy about Pullman appropriating ‘their’ colours? Was it just a coincidence? Part of an agreement between Pullman and the NYC? Did NYC take Pullman’s colour scheme?
Well, the two-tone grey scheme (with blue highlights on the 1938 version) was developed by Henry Dreyfuss for the “New and improved” 20th Century limited, a simpler version without the blue came out in 1940.
So, we can say with certainty the Central came first, and Pullman followed afterward. What the NYC had to say about that, or if they even cared I don’t know.
At any rate, those WERE Pullman staffed cars on the Century. I think the cars were even labelled “Pullman,” whether they were Pullman property or not I’m not sure. A “Century” expert’s going to have to weigh in on this.
It was my impression that a substantial number of the lightweight Pullmans were ‘painted to match’ the consists they ran in. This would only be enhanced in the years after the divestment became ‘official’ (about 1949) when the “Pullman Company” became railroad-owned. (This also explains things like Armour-yellow Pullmans lettered ‘Pennsylvania’, which could be hard for model railroaders to explain, otherwise…)
My understanding of the use of “two-tone gray” by the Pullman Company is that it was the scheme applied to “Pool” cars. These were unassigned cars that could be pressed into service where demand warranted. The Pullman two-tone gray didn’t replace the green, rather it supplemented it.
Perhaps it was Pullman’s goal to apply a color scheme that would not stand out against other railroads colors, would also compliment the increasing use of stainless steel cars. Beside New York Central, the Southern Pacific and Union Pacific both had a two-toned gray scheme.
Pullman may actually have had two-tone gray in mind before Dreyfuss adopted it for the 1938 Century. Pullman had several experimental cars that were painted in various combinations of grays and aluminum. Muskingum River was entirely clad in stainless steel.
The two experimental Pullman cars, Progress and Advance (articulated) were both painted gray and predate the Century’s roll out of lightweight cars by two-years or so.
A year after the Lightweight Century was re-equipped, 1939, American Milemaster was another Pullman experimental and painted in shades of gray.
The best reference to Pullman car colours is the “Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook” by Arthur Dubin, published by Kalbach in 1997.
This is based on notebooks kept by Peter Falles, a Pullman painter who worked from 1914 until 1967, becoming the most senior in his trade.
It states on Page 23 that Pool Cars “are painted the same as New York Central Cars… —with the exception that the small stripes between the sashes are to be eliminated and our standard lettering is to be applied.”
This refers to the 1939 modification of the “Twentieth Century” colour scheme where the blue edging was replaced by black edged silver stripes which were narrower than those in the 1938 scheme.
The book has much more on two tone grey cars on “The Overland”, “Golden State” and the SP “Lark”.
It includes reproductions of paint chips, which show that the “Lark” dark grey was very slightly darker than that on NYC cars.
I see your avatar represents the Melbourne end of the train, since the MHN vans did not have end doors…
Right up until New York Central pulled out of Pullman in 1958, the NYC system was Pullman’s largest customer. To the Central the Pullman Pool represented an expansion pool which was used a great deal until traffic dropped to the point that NYC’s own fleet was more than enough. The gray paint scheme was also acceptable for service in otherwise stainless steel trains.
SP had a number of variations on the gray scheme, the last one being the 1950 “Cascade”, whose markings bore more resemblance to a black and white photo of a contemporary Northern Pacific car than to the “Century”.
Thanks for your responses and your welcomes to the forum, everyone, I have learnt quite a bit. I had forgotten about Progress and Advance, it is interesting that their colour schemes pre-dated the '38 Century. The point about grey paint and stanless steel harmonising in a consist is one I hadn’t considered and makes a lot of sense.
One of my earliest (and fondest) memories of a train is watching the Aurora leave Spencer St. one winter night in 1975 and being both startled and hugely impressed by the blue neon sign. Not as good as a drumhead on an obs, but still classy in its own way.
Aurora SL 1
Hello, just joined this group, writing from Australia.
For those of you in the States, this may seem an obvious question, so bear with me. I have long been puzzled by the similarity between the two-tone grey colour scheme of both the 1938 20th Century Limited and the two tone grey used by Pullman after the company stopped painting rollingstock in green. I know they are not identical, but the colour schemes seem remarkably similar and I can’t imagine that the New York Central was too happy about Pullman appropriating ‘their’ colours? Was it just a coincidence? Part of an agreement between Pullman and the NYC? Did NYC take Pullman’s colour scheme?
The best reference to Pullman car colours is the “Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook” by Arthur Dubin, published by Kalbach in 1997.
This is based on notebooks kept by Peter Falles, a Pullman painter who worked from 1914 until 1967, becoming the most senior in his trade.
It states on Page 23 that Pool Cars “are painted the same as New York Central Cars… —with the exception that the small stripes between the sashes are to be eliminated and our standard lettering is to be applied.”
This refers to the 1939 modification of the “Twentieth Century” colour scheme where the blue edging
Up to the Central’s leaving the use of Pullman, efforts, varying with the importance of the train, to keep trains all-stainless or all grey. The first break was the introduction of stainless Slumbercoaches on the grey Century, and then the effort fell-apart from there. Photos should confirm this. I recall all-stainless New England States and Empire State Express trains and all-grey Centuries and Pacemakers.
The two experimental Pullman cars, Progress and Advance (articulated) were both painted gray and predate the Century’s roll out of lightweight cars by two-years or so.
In fact in Pullman Paint and Lettering, Dubin describes the colour of Advance and Progress as “Gunmetal” and this is expanded later in the description of the other cars repainted to form the Forty-Nine**r. The colour is described as polychromatic Grey, obtained by adding aluminium bronze powder to the paint. I assume this would appear much as present “metallic” paint finishes on current automobiles. It is specifically indicated that the Forty Niner cars were repainted to match the existing paint on Advance and Progress, with the wide black and gold lining, although the cars were renamed Bear Flag and California Republic. The two cars were repainted two tone grey in 1941 after the Forty Niner was discontinued, as were other cars from that train.
I first saw the Southern Aurora on 15 April 1962 when the train was placed on display in Sydney Terminal in advance of the inaugural trip the
Interpretation of the model manufacturer: SP’s two tone grey (The Lark) on the top, NYC’s two tone grey (20th Century Limited 1938) on the bottom. Yes, they are/were completely different in the pic/in real life.
At least eleven that I know of, the four American series (6-6-4) built for the ERIE were delivered in June, 1942 in Pullman green. They got the lighter window band in 1953.
There were also seven, plan 4129A 10-6 sleepers delivered to the ERIE in 1949 also in Pullman green.
Prewar Pullman pool cars were delivered in two tone gray, more like the Lark scheme than the NYC. A few, like Roomette I and Forward, were delivered in polychromatic gunmetal paint. The two unpainted cars, Muskingum River and George M. Pullman, received Lark two-tone gray and postwar two-tone gray respectively. There were no postwar lightweight pool cars, though a few cars here and there were painted in two tone gray including a couple of PRR-owned cars.
Thanks for sharing those memories, M636C, the ride in the PHN sounds spectacular. It’s a big ask but can you remember the types of locomotives? I am guessing a couple of 44s in NSW, and an ‘S’ in Victoria?
(* For those not in Australia, the 44 class were ALCO DL500B locomotives with 12-251B engines. The ‘S’ Class were derivatives of the EMD F7 with 16-567C engines; they rode on C-C trucks, not the B-B trucks the Fs used.)
Also, am I right in thinking the blue neon sign was retired when the Motorail service was introduced? (That’s what I have been told).
All of the Slumbercoaches (Sleepercoaches on NYC) were stainless steel since they were Budd products. The Slumbercoach assigned to the “North Coast Limited” was a real jolt.
Speaking of jolts, imagine a Pullman in UP colors on an IC train. In June of 1966, I spent the night in UP’s “American Sailor,” from North Cairo to Birmingham, on the *Seminole–*remember that cars lettered for foreign roads that ran regularly on IC trains were painted in IC colors. I think I found a possible answer a few weeks later when I went from Tuscaloosa to Shreveport–in Jackson, a coachload of soldiers, bound for camp near Shreveport, boarded–I thought they may have come into Jackson on IC’s 6-6-4’s that had arrived there on the Panama.
I don’t believe the IC was anywhere near as particular about the visual make up of the Seminole as they were for the Panama Limted, City of Miami and the City of New Orleans.
I realise that 58 years on, I have recalled events in the wrong order.
The ceremonial inaugural overnight passenger trains ran on Thursday 12 and Friday 13(!) April 1962. I was correct that I inspected the train on Sunday 15 April and that public service commenced 16 April.
So the name Southern Aurora was known by 15 April but was not included in the brochures handed out since they had to have been printed before the Thursday night name announcement.
On my first trip, I was looking out only in Victoria, so the locomotive was a single “S” class like those illustrated in the newsreel.
