For those that have doubted that a serious undercurrent of anti-rivet counter (or “serious modeler”) feeling exists on this forum, I have compiled the following quotes from the last two and a half years (back to Jan., 2004), using the MR Forum’s search feature for “rivet counter” (yeah, I was bored and motivated). This is not everything, by any means. Only the ones that caught my eye have I pasted here.
Be aware that quite a few are taken out of context…but I felt they are still relevent in their shortened form. Some are from folks who no longer have accounts here, so I had to use either their signature or “Unknown” to name them. My comments, if any, follow under the quote.
BTW, I wish I had a nickle for each time someone has posted, “I am not a rivet counter.” [:D]
On 6-20-06, Milwhiawatha wrote:
Imagine if someone were to suggest that a Tyco collector should sit on a smoke stack with a whistle somewhere…
It appears that the modeller who has done it wrong almost intentionally is most offended by someone “nit-picking” their efforts. If they are that thin skinned, they deserve the “Emperor’s new cloths”. The public spot light is very bright, and we might look at the “nit-picker” as the keeper of that spot light, trying to shine an amount of enlightenment into the darkness of ignorance.
My concern is for the accuracy of something that is modeled and represented as something it is not. If an individual has offered some insight into an area that we may not be aware of, or did not invest the effort to find, and we will soon be doing our Lego scale models in day-glow orange and wondering why they are not satisfying our needs. The longer we are in the hobby, if we pay attention, the larger our base of knowledge becomes and the more we ourselves know when we see something that is “wrong” but do not offer assistance in improving, aren’t we worse than the nit-picker who is trying to improve the hobby or “help” the modeller to improve his skills or knowledge.
It is unfortunate that some of the “nit-pickers” approach and comments are read, intended or not, as derogatory or an attack on the modeller. If we continue to attack the nit-picker, who is going to provide accurate information to our questions about what we are trying to create, or are we just going to “play with trains” and complain when an advertier suggests every layout has at least two 'jerks" if they have added a soda shop with an employee serving sodas.
A long time ago, I was taught that if I didn’t have anything constructive to say I should keep quiet. As a corollary, I’ve learned to ask, “Why?” before launching a negative comment.
In some ways, I AM a rivet counter. But I also recognise that some things I obsess about (like operating to the prototype’s published timetable) don’t even enter into other modelers’ equations.
Most of the people who have generated negative reactions have started from a negative position. Sometimes it’s hard for those of us who have been active scale modelers for decades to realize that a newbie’s first work is kind of like a preschooler’s crayon drawing - it isn’t likely to be perfect, but it is uniquely HIS. Criticizing it because it doesn’t meet Master Model Railroader standards isn’t going to earn anybody’s respect.
I think the rivet counters are a very beneficial component to achieving accuracy in the products produced. It is because some of them, not unlike some of every other segment as well, display the sensitivity of your average brick that they all end up getting referred to in derogatory tones.
My Father nearly got his head blown off iduring WW2 just so I could have freedom of speech, I have no regrets for my point of view regarding fastidious people, I just dont mix with them, that is my choice, as for so called Rivet Counters fine, enjoy yourselves, we cant all be the same.
My definition of “rivet counter” is: somebody who is destructively critical of others. My post above was never intended as a swipe at modelers who strive for accuracy - I know quite a few! There are, however, a few others who sneer and snicker about other peoples’ trains, who decide if certain modelers are either “in” or “out” [of their exclusive community] - THESE people are the so-called “rivet counters” I referred to in my statement above.
If I accidentally offended any serious modeler who offers helpful suggestions for improvement, I apologize[B)]
If the so-called “rivet counters” want to comment on the accuracy (or lack of it) of any new products, they most certainly can. If I don’t want to pay any attention to them, I most certainly can ignore them. This is a VERY indivualist hobby - we all approach it somewhat differently. There is room for nits to be picked or not, as each individual chooses.
Then again, uninvited criticism of a modeler’s work, as some are wont to do, is just plain rude. And I don’t think posting the work here or on another web site is a tacit invitation for such criticism. “Hey, look what I did!” doesn’t sound, or read, anything like “What’s wrong with the models in this photo?” Not that I think the uninvited criticism will stop - some people are just naturally boorish.
Paul,
I can appreciate you being upset at comments of others toward something you consider important. I responded to several coments in the Trains forum the other day that were, I felt, insulting to my home state Montana. I think the fine line that we walk in this hobby and maybe in most points in life is that we want others to do things the way we do, have the same priorities that we do and etc. Perhaps some feel threatened as inferior that they don’t count rivets. Who knows all the motivating factors. It seems to me that the balance lies in remembering that this is, at the end of the day, a hobby. If being a rivet counter and striving for complete, absolute accuracy is what brings enjoyment to the hobby for you, then go for it. For me I am somewhat in the middle. Modeling in S scale for the Great Northern, I am not able to purchase steam power, short of brass, that is absolutely accurate for GN. My new northern is close but, I am sure to a rivet counter, would not be acceptable. But it is fine for me. I think the fury comes when either a rivet counter type slams a project made by a “non rivet counter”, or equally, when “nonrivet counter”, threatened by the detail of counters, lash out. Like I said earlier it is a hobby and in the end the only one that I need to please by my model railroad and building projects is me.
my 3 cents(inflation and all)
Randy Johnson
In my time on this forum, rivet counters don’t really have a corner on receiving put-downs. I think most anyone who has been around this forum a while has been called at least some of the above at some point over the most minor of things.
I stand by my comments. There are folks (some of whom are on this forum) who are hyper critical of others and/or do dictate what you must do (or not do) to be a “real” model railroader. Fairly or unfairly these folks are known as "r
It’s a big hobby, and there is room on the tracks for everyone. When I go to a train show, I’ll marvel at the detail level of a very realistic layout, but I’ll also smile at old tinplate trains running around impossibly tight curves, or Thomas chugging through a very plastic village.
Besides, even with bi-focals, it’s getting harder and harder to even see all those rivets. [:D]
Some years ago MR did an article about a well-known modeller, very prolific, and an early proponent of “operation” (as opposed to “running trains”). It was noted that if something was giving him a problem (like a leading truck on a steam locomotive), he simply took it off or otherwise fixed it so it wasn’t a problem. If the result wasn’t “prototypical,” so what? The enjoyment was in playing the game (operation).
I’m sitting at work, too far from my magazines to research the article, and coming up blank on the name of the modeller, but I’d bet that the the most ardent rivet counter would number him in their top ten favorite modellers…
Wracking my brain - methinks it was John Allen of Gorre & Daphetid fame…
Paul,I’m not naive when it comes to rivet counters good or bad.There are both kinds.
Then you have guys like you that gets bent out of shape if folks don’t like rivet counters.and must go on the attack…Why not go after the bad rivet counters that give good rivet counters bad names?
I also know there are rivet counters that are no more then cry babies if locomotives and cars isn’t 110% correct from the box…These types even lack the basic skill needed to add simple detail parts and find lamebrain or hairball excuses why they shouldn’t add detail parts or gets offensive if one happens to mention how simple it would be to add a part…Another thing I like about some rivet counters is you never SEE a PICTURE of their SUPER CORRECT models!!! Why is that?
Do they merely talk the talk but don’t walk the walk?
So you reckon. And yet when invited to cite examples of this behaviour from this forum, the silence from those contributing to this thread is deafening…
No…that certainly wasn’t John Allen! As I recall, the individual you are referring to, who did such “modifications” to his equipment to provide the best operating characteristics, was Frank Ellison, on his Delta Lines, back in the 1940’s and early 50’s. I’m not sure that was the best or most logical approach to addressing such matters and certainly not one I’d recommend to anyone today![:D]
Surely the next question is “what constitutes a rivet counter”? is there a standards committee that awards a diploma in rivet counting ? ? what are the limits? if you consider yourself a counter, I may not, do you consider bolt and rivet spacing arrangement and amount of rust accumulated on the underside of a 1948 boxcar along with the precise steel plate thickness and adjoinment of sheet metal joints on a coal tender, what about the glass thickness and design of frosted glass etchings on the bathroom windows of a sleeping car? Is that what people mean by rivet counting ? Or does that mean everyone has their own standards and is just “a little bit of a rivet counter” By the way, some responses are very animated for and against.
I think that maybe, there is just a tad of a little sensitivity going on here. IF you were at my office we’d do a little EFT to get over it, but since we’re here, I suggest a couple
Mate, you’d lose that bet. Why would any rivet counter number John Allen - patron saint of the fantasy trains and layout fraternity - among their favourites? Even his much-lauded “operations” were little more than chess games with railroad cars.
