"Rivet Counter" Put Downs

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
21

I have always wondered how a prototype can be modeled to the absolute last detail.

I could never be a rivet counter, because I would have to build an exact replica but in miniature form (HO 1:87 is my preferred scale), and I am not even sure what the actual definition of such rivet counter includes[?]

For me I could not be a rivet counter because to actually model the prototype true to form I would need to have a warehouse sized layout to have the broad 60’ and 90’ radius curves, the long stretches of open mainline runs between towns. Heck a scale mile of track in HO is 60 feet 7.5 inches. So, lets say I want to model the Piedmont Division of the Norfolk Southern line (BTW that is my prototype) and keep the scale miles of track in “true form”. Then modeling the Oakdale, TN to Salisbury, NC division which is 292 miles (+/-) of mainline prototype track would take up 17,702.5 feet of HO scale track.[wow]

So, I could never be a rivet counter, it gets too expensive and is just not realistic. 17,702.5 feet of HO scale track at 3’ flex track pieces comes to 5,900 pieces of flex track, or $17,112.00 not including shipping and tax. So, how do rivet counters justify the selective compression of the mainline tracks on their layouts?

Now I know all about selective compression, but if I am free to selectively compress my track, then I will just have to selectively compress other features of my model layout too!

22

I just placed my order! Now i just need to find a convention center to buy…hmm…[:D]

23

Maybe we ought to have two terms. Constructive Rivet Counter and Destructive Rivet Counter.

Constructive Rivet Counter: Strives for prototypical accuracy in his/her models. Enjoys reseaching. Finds the spending of hours to get things “just right” is relaxing. More than happy to share his/her knowledge with others if asked. Encourages without using putdowns. Understands that other modelers aren’t into the same things he/she is and is fine with that. Believes that his/her way of pursuing the hobby may not be for everyone, and has the belief that if a person is having fun - then that’s all that matters.

24

Dave,I don’t have any problems with what you call “Constructive Rivet Counter” I call ‘em prototype modelers.[:D]
Its the owl hoots that feel they must find fault with other modelers work,every new release,must jump in and point out errors even tho’ they are not ask for accuracy opinions/reports.These self righteous modelers gives bad names to your “Constructive Rivet Counter”…
Sadly there are hundreds of these jokers in the hobby.[8][B)][V] To bad these bad apples ruin the bushel.[:(]

25

Interesting…I would agree that the rivet counters that most people refer to are those that can’t stand to see a model that isn’t perfect. The ones that offer kind advice and don’t try to pu***heir style on other people are definately not the ones that are called “evil” and all.

Here, I have an example. By now most of us have seen the amazing work of Bob Grech, and I’ve seen nothing but respect for him on this forum. I can’t confirm whether everything on his layout is 100% prototypical, but it is certainly detailed and there is nothing “out of place” (i.e. a fleet of model T’s on 80’s autoracks pulled by an SD70ACe). I have also never seen him bashing another modeler because they did something like what’s above.

You give respect, you get respect…

26

Interesting thread…

27

I’m proud to have made the list and I’m glad I punched your button. I also stand by what I said. Let me see your perfect model(s) sir? Then you can chastise me all you want for my critter work and rivet bashing. Also write the National Association of Rivet Counters and tell them how mean I am. ROFLOL I’m just full of hate for your kind. :slight_smile:

28

Absolutely!!! The choir director at my church and her husband qualitfy as musical snobs as the “only” music of any worth is the Romantic Anthem. If they should perform any current style of music, it is with a definate Vanilla flavor. Personally it drives me up the wall (and I graduated from Eastman, but of course don’t really know anything as I taught Middle School music…) When the choir butchers some piece of music, I just nod and say “really enjoyed the anthem today”. Now I told you that so I can tell you this. We also have a Gospel Men’s Quartet at the church made up of a couple retired music teachers and two other guys who just like to sing. All of these guys sing in the main choir as well. The style of music they sing is not my cup ‘o’ tea, but they sure have fun doing their thing and I enjoy watching them perform. Several years ago I was a substitute Bass with them on occasion. Our choir director’s husband, who is convinced he is God’s gift to Tenorhood (and sounds like fingernails being dragged down the chaukboard - he has a “studied” voice) because he sings in a well known Oratorio Society in a city not far away, will sit in the choir in front of the entire congregation and roll his eyes and make faces during the quartets entire performance. Its kinda the “performance within the performance”. [:D]

You see Rivet Counters exist in every area of Human Life! Everyone that is in this great hobby is here to have some fun. A true “Rivet Counter” has fun at other peoples expense. I will only buy rolling stock and locos that have a built date prior to 1925 as that is the date of my RR. On the other hand I just told a LHS owner that he and some friends were very welcome to bring over a SD 40&2/3s XYZ Diseasal (or whatever they are called [;)]) to run if they wished.

Why don’t we all get back to having fun whatever way turns

29

Great job, Paul…

It seems you have struck a nerve, throwing what negative comments people said back up in their faces – even getting a few more examples!

30

Nice going, flee307. You’ve definitely got a response to be proud of here. Especially that last sentence.

This is a prime example of boorish behavior from the supposedly wounded “other side.” A lot of folks here are spending great efforts trying to divide up the modeling community. They get to be right, only if they can show that other people are wrong. Thus these types of divisions into rivet counters and toy train players, standard versus narrow gaugers, diesels versus steamers. No matter what group you’re in, there’s someone waiting to tell you that you’re in the wrong group, and proud to be a thorn in your side, too.

It all gets very tiresome. Makes me want to give all of you folks a rest. And that is a reaction after not having visited this forum much for a week or so. Imagine how disgusted it makes those who aren’t familiar with this forum.

-Ed

31

Rivet Counter, Rivet Counter
Can’t touch me
Your 10-by glass
Is to small for me

If it were that important
The stuff I couldn’t see
I’d be spending my time
With a layout in Z

So take your detailed bottoms
Stored up on the shelf
And work into the night
Like a Keebler Elf

It’s got to impress a body
the brake leak on your tire
Oops that is isn’t right
the ladder goes up higher

So Rivet Counter, Rivet Counter
No importance to me
I’d fini***his poem,
But I really got to pee.

32

There isn’t a clear-cut definition of a “Rivet Counter” is there?

It has always been my impression that the term Rivet Counter was coined to relate to those modelers that look for absolute perfection in any model…And would have the tendancy to count rivets (metaphorically speaking) on other railroader’s models, and point out the flaws and why they are not exactly prototypical. Now, would that or would that not annoy any modeler that is not striving for absolute perfection?

But that’s just the definition I have learned and adapted to coinside with my train of thought. (Pun intended)

But as everyone else can see, reading through here, there are many definitions for what a “Rivet Counter” is…But from what I’ve read, the majority of the definitions of a Rivet Counter is nothing good…But what does it matter here? We are just a small group of individuals in the massive model railroading world…Who knows all the definitions that could be out there…

Maybe we should contact the NMRA and ask for a standard.[^][:p][;)]

33

Hmmmm…Slow news day I guess

I stand by my comments, simply pulling one (or many) comments out of their original context and then griping about it is a fallicy, as it doesnt allow the reader to understand what the original comment was referring to in the first place.

All my comments are based on PERSONAL interactions over the years. I’ve seen good models put down for very minor reasons. Doesnt matter that its a fine model, its not correct to the line in THIS year or on THAT day. God FORBID you show up with something freelanced, "What line ran this, where’s the blueprints? WHAT? its FREELANCED, OH MY GOD!!! " So yes, myself, and quite apparently several others here, have had BAD run-ins’s with what is refered to as a Rivet Counter…these kind of encounters are one reason (of many) for my switch to large scale from HOn30, I just got tired of the few but vocal gripe-masters that one seams to run into in HO and HOn gauges…

To me …Rivet Counters are BAD people who grip, **** and moam about ANYTHING that upsets their model RR universe, be that incorrect rivet patterns on a Z scale F7, or freelanced loggings engines, or anything that simply offends their eye. Its not that they may dislike something, I see stuff I dont like too, the difference is that I dont go out of my way to pick a fight with the guy who built it. A rivet counter likes to pick fights

BTW what do I call open minded, friendly, helpfull, guys who can scratchbuilt a K7 from 10 sheets of brass with nothing more than snips, files, and a soldering iron? MODELERS! And I’ve known a couple of them…these Master Modelers fall no where near the term Rivet Counter.

They know its a hobby, its supposed to be FUN, and if your not having fun, if its a chore to build something, if it brings out the worst in a person, makes them confontational, krotchety, and just plain no fun to be around, your in the wrong hobby!

PS some of the BEST modelers I’ve seen do whimsical fantasti

34

I’ll add this just to irritate the ultra-rivet counters out there![;)]

A kitbashed, freelanced raitruck for my mythical mining RR, The Borracho Springs RR, that runs to a town in a corner of Ariziona that never existed…built, by eye!, no measurements, using quite literally whatever I could find in my part box, what I couldnt find, like the engine block, I scratched out of balsa and styrene…in a word, it a complete fantasy! Never existed, never had any blueprints, never will!!! I dig it!!! Looks great to me, and thats all that counts.[:D]

35

Ellison and others may have done it too, but Linn Westcott noted in his book Model Railroading with John Allen (Kalmbach) that John freely swapped tenders between engines, whether coal, oil or wood, no matter the firebox type, to change their appearance. He also notes that engines, specifically mentioning #35, had the front truck removed (making #35 an extemely unlikely 0-6-6-0) for better running performance.

A direct quote from Westcott, page 133: “… John valued mechanical perfection much more than prototype fidelity.”

Regards,

Byron

36

Crandell no like ad hominem arguments. Don’t help one little bit, nope.

37

[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Hmmmm…Slow news day I guess

I stand by my comments, simply pulling one (or many) comments out of their original context and then griping about it is a fallicy, as it doesnt allow the reader to understand what the original comment was referring to in the first place.

All my comments are based on PERSONAL interactions over the years. I’ve seen good models put down for very minor reasons. Doesnt matter that its a fine model, its not correct to the line in THIS year or on THAT day. God FORBID you show up with something freelanced, "What line ran this, where’s the blueprints? WHAT? its FREELANCED, OH MY GOD!!! " So yes, myself, and quite apparently several others here, have had BAD run-ins’s with what is refered to as a Rivet Counter…these kind of encounters are one reason (of many) for my switch to large scale from HOn30, I just got tired of the few but vocal gripe-masters that one seams to run into in HO and HOn gauges…

To me …Rivet Counters are BAD people who grip, **** and moam about ANYTHING that upsets their model RR universe, be that incorrect rivet patterns on a Z scale F7, or freelanced loggings engines, or anything that simply offends their eye. Its not that they may dislike something, I see stuff I dont like too, the difference is that I dont go out of my way to pick a fight with the guy who built it. A rivet counter likes to pick fights

BTW what do I call open minded, friendly, helpfull, guys who can scratchbuilt a K7 from 10 sheets of brass with nothing more than snips, files, and a soldering iron? MODELERS! And I’ve known a couple of them…these Master Modelers fall no where near the term Rivet Counter.

They know its a hobby, its supposed to be FUN, and if your not having fun, if its a chore to build something, if it brings out the worst in a person, makes them confontational, krotchety, and just plain no fun to be around, your in the wrong hobby!

38

Don’t know what category I fall in, and I don’t really care either. I think complaining about “rivet counters” or “critics” as a justification for a model that doesn’t really work with the scheme or fit in some way is not a great sign of maturity. Either be satisfied with your effort or not. Whether it is pure fiction, free-lance, prototype, or something in between; whether you want to run any mix of eras and prototype, or represent a particular day and place - these are your decisions, and have no reason to be based on what others may think.

Now, when you post photos for all to comment on, you should expect some negative comments, too. Others may place different values on different aspects of the hobby than you do, which may render your “masterpiece” as nothing of the sort to them. Courtesy would dictate that negative opinions not be posted, but that ain’t always going to happen. However, if I am attempting to accurately model a particular prototype, I am very interested in ACCURATE information as to what I got wrong. Even if I don’t correct the errors, I appreciate knowing more about the prototype.

Same is true of “reviews” of model production. Just because the manufacturer built in certain inaccuracies doesn’t mean I won’t buy it. But I do appreciate learning this information as long as it is CORRECT. The more I know in advance of what is right and what is wrong with a model, the more informed my buying decision will be. I especially like the constructive comments about no-particular-prototype models, as to what they might come close to. These reflect a type of imagination I often don’t have.

As usual, my thoughts, your choices. I just want to have fun with model trains, however fun is defined.
Fred W

39

Wow! The fur is sure flyin’ here early…

The issue here is not whether rivet counting is good or bad but what is the motivation and attitude behind it. If it’s used to enhance the realism and historical accuracy of one’s OWN prototypical layout to make it more enjoyable for the modeler - it’s a good thing. However, if it’s used in order to criticize or nitpick others or to gain some sort of self-imposed “smugness” and “superiority” - i.e. “MY layout is better than YOURS” mentality - then it’s a bad thing.

Let’s knock off the bickering, fellas, and leave this one in the early rounds…

Tom

40

Model Railroading is fun and no matter how hard you try, models cannot be the perfect image of the prototype.

I look at brass over the years and how it has added detail to the point of the 1960 era of brass looks plain compared to Division Point, Key or Overland models that are current.

I worked on detailing a brass model for several years before it was completed and painted. This was completed about twelve years ago and after all of the work, the Overland model came out and it was available for jus money, not time and space. painting